PC MINS 20040224CITY OR RANCHO PALOS VERDES
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
REGULAR MEETING
FEBRUARY 24, 2004
CALL TO ORDER
Aero ed
March 9,
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Mueller at 7:05 p.m. at the Fred Hesse
Community Room, 29301 Hawthorne Boulevard.
FLAG SALUTE
Commissioner Gerstner led the assembly in the Pledge of Allegiance.
ATTENDANCE
Present: Commissioners Gerstner, Karp, Knight, Tetreault, Van Wagner, Chairman
Mueller. Commissioner Cote arrived at 7:35 p.m.
Absent None
Also present were Director of Planning, Building, and Code Enforcement Rojas,
Associate Planner Blumenthal, Associate Planner Schonborn, and Project Coordinator
Alvarez.
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
Commissioner Van Wagner requested that Agenda Item No 1 be removed from the
Consent Calendar for discussion, seconded by Commissioner Knight. Approved
without objection.
COMMUNICATIONS
Director/Secretary Rojas congratulated Chairman Mueller on his appointment as
Chairman and that a Vice Chairman would be selected at the next Planning
Commission meeting. He reported that at the last City Council meeting there was
direction given to proceed with a code amendment related to neighborhood
compatibility, which staff will present to the Planning Commission in April. He also
explained the code amendment that was adopted by the City Council as an Urgency
Ordinance regarding the height variation findings, noting that the Planning Commission
will be hearing two items on the agenda that will be subject to the new finding.
Chairman Mueller asked the Planning Commissioners if they knew the Ordinance had
changed and if they had received a copy of the Urgency Ordinance.
The Planning Commissioners were not aware that the Ordinance had changed and had
not received a copy of the Urgency Ordinance.
Regarding the two height variations on the agenda, Chairman Mueller asked staff if they
had notified the residents in the 500 -foot radius of the change to the Ordinance
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that the City Council had adopted the Urgency
Ordinance at their last meeting and staff would not have had time to notify the residence
in the 500 -foot radius of the two projects, and noted that it is not required to notify the
residents
COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE REGARDING NON -AGENDA ITEMS
None
CONSENT CALENDAR
1. Grading Permit (Case ZON2003-00458): 3837 Crest Road
Commissioner Tetreault disclosed that the applicant for this item is his mother-in-law
and therefore recused himself.
Director/Secretary Rojas presented the staff report, explaining that several years back
the permit for this new home was never finaled and expired, and that in situations such
as this staff does not make the individual go through a new process, as in most
instances the project is done. Therefore, staff has brought this before the Planning
Commission since they were the body that originally approved the project. He
explained that staff was recommending the Planning Commission issue a new grading
approval that allows the applicant to get her final permit, adding that staff was not
recommending the Planning Commission impose new conditions on the project He
stated that staff and a building inspector have been to the property and in their judgment
the house has been built in accordance with the approved plans.
Commissioner Van Wagner asked if staff was aware of what outstanding inspections
were required to final this project.
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that, though staff no longer has the approved
building plans, there is a record of inspections that have been performed and it appears
that all required inspections have been done other than the final inspection.
Commissioner Karp asked if there was a statue of limitation regarding expired permits.
Director/Secretary Rojas stated that there is no statue of limitation regarding
unpermitted construction and that when something is built without a permit it will
become a code enforcement case
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 2
Chairman Mueller stated that he agrees with the staff recommendations and did not feel
it would be necessary or fair to impose any additional conditions on the project.
Commissioner Knight noted that there were six conditions attached to the original
approval, and asked if all of those conditions will be met.
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that staff will verify that all conditions are met before
a final inspection is given
Commissioner Knight agreed with the staff recommendations to re -issue the Planning
Commission approval.
Chairman Mueller opened the public hearing.
Rod Peveler 4203 Spencer Street, Torrance (representing the owner) stated that the
current owner bought the house several years ago not realizing there was not a final
building permit on the home. He explained that when he came to the City to get a
permit for repair work he was going to perform on the property the Building and Safety
Department discovered at that time that the permit for the house had expired. He stated
that the building inspector has been to the property and has gone through the home to
look for safety issues and code violations, and determined that the house was built to
code.
Chairman Mueller closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Knight moved to approve the Grading Permit, thereby approving
the re -issuance of the June 10, 1987 approval of Grading Permit No. 913, which
allowed the construction of the new residence, seconded by Commissioner Van
Wagner. Approved, (5-1-0) with Commissioner Tetreault abstaining.
CONTINUED BUSINESS
Commissioner Cote arrived at 7:35 p.m
2. Grading Permit, Conditional Use Permit, and Site Plan Review Permit
(Case ZON2002-00595: 20 Headland Drive
Associate Planner Blumenthal presented the staff report, explaining that the applicant
has withdrawn the application.
Commissioner Cote moved to receive and file the request to withdraw the
application, seconded by Commissioner Knight. Accepted, (7-0).
3. Height Variation Permit and Site Plan Review (Case ZON2003-00452: 30003
Matisse Drive
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 3
Associate Planner Schonborn presented the staff report, giving a brief history of the
project and the reason for the continuance. He explained that the layout of the addition
has not changed since the last meeting, however the design has changed to address
the concerns raised by staff and the Planning Commission, presenting power point
slides to show the original design and the new proposed design. He stated that staff felt
that the applicant has addressed staffs concerns and recommends the Planning
Commission approve, as re -designed, the Height Variation Permit and Site Plan
Review. He explained that staff spoke with the property owner across the street who
had raised issues with the onginal project, and he indicated that issues have been
addressed by not raising the ridgeline elevation and he no longer has any objections to
the project. Mr. Schonborn noted the section in the staff report which addresses the
new findings for height variations recently adopted by the City Council. He explained
that for the purposes of this application, staff was able to make these findings and,
using power point, explained how the findings could be made
Commissioner Knight discussed the new balcony and addition in relation to the
neighbor's property and felt that the balcony and addition may look into the neighbor's
home. He asked staff if they had done an analysis to determine if there was a privacy
issue with the neighbor.
Associate Planner Schonborn explained that because of the differences in topography
and the transitional slope along the side yard there was fencing and foliage in place
which hinders direct observation into the neighbor's home, and staff therefore
concluded that the addition would not create a privacy infringement issue
Chairman Mueller asked if a view analysis had been done to verify that a portion of the
entry and the first story addition do not impair a view
Associate Planner Schonborn answered that staff had done a view analysis and was
satisfied that there would be no view impairment. He explained that staff had notified
the neighbors of the change in the findings, however none of the neighbors had an
objection to the proposed addition
Chairman Mueller discussed the new ordinance, specifically finding no. 4, and asked if
he now has to consider the view over the re -built ridgeline of the applicant's home and
make the appropriate findings
Director/Secretary Rojas explained that the intent of the finding was to assess the view
from the proposed new addition on a property, although he acknowledged that the way
the finding was written, one could interpret it in a much more stnngent way
Chairman Mueller was concerned that the way the finding was written, if one were to
demolish a portion of their home and rebuild it to a certain height, it was not clear that
they could rebuild it to any height because it may interfere with a view from another
parcel.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 4
Director/Secretary Rojas stated that the intent was to compare what is at a property now
versus what will be there after the proposed addition. He noted that he will discuss the
issue with the City Attorney and possibly suggest some clarifying language to the City
Council or perhaps some clarification for the Guidelines.
Commissioner Van Wagner did not think the language in the finding was intended to
create new views
Director/Secretary Rojas agreed that the intent of the City Council was to compare what
is there now with what the result will be
Commissioner Tetreault noted that this is an Urgency Ordinance and that changes
could be made to the final Ordinance, and wondered if the Planning Commission would
be making findings and decisions based on language that could possibly be changed in
the weeks ahead and no longer be included in the final Ordinance.
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that it was possible, however he did not foresee any
change, other than possibly clarifying language, between the Urgency Ordinance and
the final Ordinance.
Commissioner Cote agreed that there could be some confusion regarding the
interpretation of the Ordinance and the language should be clarified, however she
agreed with the Director regarding the intent of the City Council in that the purpose of
the finding was to compare the existing views available to what views will be existing
after the proposed additions.
Chairman Mueller opened the public hearing.
Kurt Beckmever 1151 El Centro Street (architect) appreciated the concerns raised by
the Planning Commission and did not think it was fair to an applicant to entertain the
possibility of having to create new views after having come this far and worked so hard
to reduce the proposed addition and address the concerns raised by the Planning
Commission at the previous meeting. He felt the current proposal satisfies the concerns
raised at the last Planning Commission meeting and asked if there were any questions
regarding the project.
Commissioner Cote asked Mr. Beckmeyer how he addressed the concern previously
raised regarding the height of the ceiling in the entryway.
Mr. Beckmeyer explained that he lowered the floor level of the entry, lowered the
framing, lowered the ceiling height of the mezzanine, and reduced the thickness of the
roof construction
Chairman Mueller closed the public hearing.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 5
Commissioner Karp was satisfied that there would be no view impairment caused by
this proposed addition to any of the neighbors and supported the project.
Commissioner Tetreault agreed with Commissioner Karp's comments and felt that the
new Ordinance does not impact this project. Further, he felt that if there is any
ambiguity in the Ordinance, the Planning Commission should be able to make a
reasonable interpretation of the Ordinance.
Commissioner Cote complimented the architect and the applicant for listening to the
concerns of the previous Planning Commissioners and addressing those concerns in
this redesign of the project
Commissioner Knight agreed that there would be no impact to views from this proposed
addition, and that there needs to be clarification in the language of the Ordinance
Chairman Mueller noted that his concerns had to do with the Ordinance and not the
project He too felt that the architect has found a very good solution to preserving the
view over the property and was satisfied that the concerns raised by the previous
Planning Commission had been addressed.
Commissioner Cote moved to adopt P.C. Resolution No. 2004-06, thereby
approving Case No. ZON2003-00452 for a Height Variation and Site plan Review
as presented, seconded by Commissioner Van Wagner. Approved, (7-0).
4. Appeal of View Preservation Permit No. 63: 15 Diamonte Lane
Commissioner Cote stated that she had not had the opportunity to visit the site as
required, and therefore would recuse herself from this item
Director/Secretary Rojas polled the Planning Commission, and the remaining
Commissioners had visited the site
Project Coordinator Alvarez presented the staff report with a power point presentation,
giving a history of the project and recapped the concerns expressed by Dr. Kaye in his
appeal. He stated that staff has found no basis contained in Dr. Kaye's appeal, and
was recommending the Planning Commission dismiss the appeal and affirm the
Director's decision.
Commissioner Van Wagner asked staff if Dr Kaye was disagreeing with the staff
recommendation.
Project Coordinator Alvarez explained that Dr. Kaye has appealed the decision based
on the grounds that there is not a significant view impairment and that the Director's
decision to trim the trees will damage the trees.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 6
Chairman Mueller asked staff if both Dr. Kaye's arborist and the city arborist were
saying that the tree in question could be trimmed without harming the tree.
Project Coordinator Alvarez stated that both arborists agreed the tree could be trimmed
down, and noted that the City is recommending the trees be trimmed during the cooler
months of the year, November through March.
Commissioner Tetreault asked staff to clarify what view is being restored.
Project Coordinator Alvarez stated that the view beyond the subject trees is the city Tight
view and the harbor view.
Commissioner Karp asked if trimming the trees would be detrimental to Dr. Kaye's
property in terms of shade or landscaping
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that there is a difference between view preservation
and view restoration in that in view preservation there is no language regarding
balancing shade or landscaping with that of trimming
Project Coordinator Alvarez stated that Dr. Kaye had expressed the concern that if the
tree is trimmed down 10 feet, it would leave the tree unsightly. However, he noted that
condition no. 1 states that the tree should also be laced and shaped to maintain the
integrity of the tree structure, which he felt would mitigate Dr. Kaye's concern.
Commissioner Karp asked if any consideration had been given to the fire hazard the
tree may present to the community or Dr. Kaye's house.
Project Coordinator Alvarez answered that staff had not taken that into consideration.
Commissioner Tetreault questioned the amount of time that had taken place since the
baseline photos were taken in 1989, and asked if there was any consideration in staffs
review as to the amount of time that transpires and how much growth has taken place
when making recommendations.
Project Coordinator Alvarez answered that when staff goes to a property to analyze the
situation there has to be a significant view impairment occurring and five years ago the
trees may not have impaired the view at that time.
Commissioner Knight asked staff to clarify how they measured 1/3 of the tree when
discussing the tnmming.
Project Coordinator Alvarez explained that 1/3 of the crown is approximately 10 feet,
and 10 feet from the top of the crown is the area that should be trimmed. He felt there
may have been some confusion between Dr. Kaye's arborist and staffs
recommendation, where Mr. Kaye believed 1/3 of the entire tree was to be trimmed
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 7
Chairman Mueller opened the public hearing.
Paul Kaye 9 Diamonte Lane explained that the reason he appealed the decision was
that it is very important to him that the trees remain healthy He stated that the trees are
over 40 years old and it would be a shame if the trees are over trimmed and die. He
stated that the trees dominate the entire yard and are a very important part of the
ambiance of his yard. He stated that he would like a resolution to this situation as soon
as possible, as if he has to trim the trees he would like to do so during dormant period.
He asked that the Planning Commission accept his arbonst's recommendations as to
how the trees should be trimmed.
Commissioner Van Wagner asked Dr. Kaye if he was in agreement that 10 feet be cut
from the top of his tree and the tree be laced.
Dr: Kaye answered that there is a difference between chopping off the top of a tree and
trimming and lacing a tree. He felt that the less that is taken off the less damage that
will be done to the tree.
Angus Lorenzen 15 Diamonte Lane stated that over the last 15 years he has made
every effort to resolve the issue of the foliage with the Kayes, and this is the first time
that Dr Kaye has shown any flexibility. He stated that Dr. Kaye's position in the past
was that he would not cut any trees because once he trimmed the trees, he would
continue trimming them. Secondly, he noted that canary island pines are very
amenable to shaping and pruning He felt that the foliage should be returned to the
baseline level of 1989 He stated that the point is not how much you take off of the tree
and high the tree is, but rather do you take off the foliage that is causing a significant
view obstruction. He felt the trees block his view of downtown Long Beach, the Vincent
Thomas Bridge, the harbor, the curve of the bay, and the city lights and felt this
constitutes more than a significant view obstruction. He felt there was a problem with
lacing the trees because the three trees are very close together and when lacing trees,
the trees grow back very rapidly. He distributed several pictures showing the trees from
his property. He added that there is a melaleuca tree and some birch trees on Mr.
Kaye's property which the City has not recommended trimming because they do not
significantly impair the view. He noted, however, that once the subject pine trees are
trimmed the melaleuca and birch trees will become prominent in the view frame.
Commissioner Knight asked Mr Lorenzen if he had read the staff report and asked him
if he felt that trimming 10 to 12 feet from the trees would restore his view.
Mr. Lorenzen answered that he had read the staff report, but was unsure if trimming 10
to 12 feet from the trees would restore his view, as he did not understand where 10 feet
would be on the tree. He felt that if the trees were trimmed according to the staff
recommendation as shown, and also trim down the sides, that he would be satisfied.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 8
Chairman Mueller asked Mr. Lorenzen if he agreed with the line represented on the
photographs that staff was representing at the level the trees should be trimmed down
to.
Mr. Lorenzen agreed with the level to which the trees should be trimmed but added that
trimming alone would not restore his view.
Chairman Mueller asked Mr. Lorenzen if he was opposed to lacing the tree but
supported trimming and shaping the tree.
Mr. Lorenzen responded that shaping the tree was very important to keep the tree
looking graceful and keep the side branches out of the view area.
Chairman Mueller asked Mr. Lorenzen if trimming the melaleuca tree down to the same
level as the pine trees would be appropriate
Mr. Lorenzen felt that would be appropriate, as it was only a matter of a few feet
Dr Kaye (in rebuttal) stated that the trees on his property are mature, 42 year old trees,
and to now try to shape them would be difficult. He felt that lacing the trees was
appropriate and easier on the trees. He realized the trees would have to be trimmed
and urged the Planning Commission to utilize the recommendations of his arborist,
stating that he was anxious to have this matter settled and he was willing to have the
trees trimmed to give the Lorenzens as much view as possible without doing serious
damage to his trees
Chairman Mueller closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Tetreault felt that the conditions in Exhibit A of the staff report are a bit
ambiguous and could be cleaned up somewhat. Specifically, he referred to the
language stating the trees should be trimmed approximately 10 to 12 feet to reflect the
conditions shown in the documentation photograph dated November 1989. He felt that
this type of language might lead to some dispute in the field when the trimming is being
done and suggested the language be more definitive.
Director/Secretary Rojas suggested the Planning Commission may consider amending
the condition to direct that 10 feet be trimmed from the overall height of each tree or to
the red line shown on the attached photograph, whichever is lower.
Chairman Mueller asked staff if the language presented in the Conditions of Approval
Exhibit A covers what the Planning Commission can do as far as view preservation, or
is the Planning Commission allowed to go beyond that to shape the tree in any way.
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that the language presented includes shaping the
tree.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 9
Commissioner Gerstner asked, to remove the ambiguity, if the wording could be that the
trees be trimmed 10 feet, but no lower than the red line depicted in the photograph
Director/Secretary Rojas felt that would be appropriate language
Commissioner Karp felt that the issue before the Planning Commission was whether or
not to overturn the Director's findings on a View Preservation Case, and felt the
Planning Commission was now discussing how to rewrite the recommendations, which
is not what should be discussed.
Chairman Mueller disagreed, stating that it was up to the Planning Commission to
review the Ordinance and make a determination on how to enforce the Ordinance, and
therefore it is never as simple as saying yes or no to staff's decision since it is ultimately
the responsibility of the Planning Commission
Commissioner Karp asked how the tree trimmers will know where the red line is when
they are trimming the trees, and if the trees are trimmed to the red line what will happen
in two years when the trees begin growing
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that it is the responsibility of the foliage owner to
keep the trees maintained at the 1989 level He noted that there is language in the
conditions of approval that the trees will have to be trimmed on an annual basis to keep
them at the appropriate level.
Commissioner Tetreault stated that he was having trouble ordering trimming the trees to
the red line without knowing if that would exceed one third the crown length, which is
the area that the city arborist felt was safe to cut the tree
Commissioner Gerstner moved to order the tree be trimmed 12 feet or to the 1989
level as represented by the red line in the photograph, whichever is less, and that
the tree shall be laced or shaped per Dr. Kaye's arborists recommendations and
the tree shall be trimmed annually as described in the staff's recommendations,
seconded by Commissioner Knight.
Commissioner Karp moved to amend the motion that the red line be established
using the best scientifically available methods agreed to by both parties,
seconded by Commissioner Gerstner.
Commissioner Knight asked staff if the amendment to the motion was something that
could be done by staff.
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that staff could not measure the height of the red
line, however could require that the tree trimming crew along with the foliage owner and
applicant agree on the height of the red line
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 10
Chairman Mueller felt that if the two parties could come to an agreement, they would not
be before the Planning Commission with this appeal. He asked staff if the Planning
Commission was still allowed to require these two parties to agree where the red line is,
as he felt the red line was documented by the photograph from the view owner's
property that was performed per the City's regulations.
Director/Secretary Rojas felt that it was important for the City to determine where the
red line is as opposed to the applicant or the foliage owner He understood
Commissioner Karp's point that the level of the red line should be determined and
suggested adding a condition of approval that once the trimming is completed to the
satisfaction of the Director the applicant determine the height of that red line through a
survey report and submit the information to the City.
Commissioner Karp's amendment to the motion failed, (1-5) with Commissioners
Tetreault, Van Wagner, Knight, Gerstner, and Chairman Mueller dissenting.
Chairman Mueller moved to amend the motion to require the trees be shaped
rather than laced or shaped as suggested in the original motion, seconded by
Commissioner Tetreault. The amendment to the motion passed, (6-0).
Director/Secretary Rojas clarified that the motion on the floor is now to dismiss the
appeal and uphold the Director's decision with the amendment to trim 12 feet off of the
overall height of the trees or to the 1989 level of the foliage as depicted by the red line
of the attached photograph, whichever is lower and to shape the sides of the trees to
reflect the conditions in 1989.
Commissioner Karp asked how the level of the red line will be determined in the field.
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that the red line will be determined by visual
observation of someone standing where the photograph was taken and directing the
tree trimmers where tb trim.
Commissioner Karp questioned whether that person will be 6 feet tall or 5 feet tall,
standing or sitting, using a wide-angle camera or a narrow angle camera. He felt the
idea is good but there is not a methodology in place
Commissioner Tetreault asked for clarification on the wording of the motion which states
that the trees will be trimmed 12 feet or to the red line, whichever is lower He asked if
this meant lower to the ground or the amount of trimming
Commissioner Gerstner responded that the intention of the motion was to trim the trees
12 feet or to the 1989 level, whichever was the least amount of trimming or whichever is
higher from the ground. He stated that he did not want to recommend trimming the
trees greater than the level that the arborist had suggested to keep from killing the
trees.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 11
Commissioner Tetreault noted that in the original motion Commissioner Gerstner had
stated whichever is less rather than whichever is lower.
Commissioner Gerstner suggested clarifying the motion to say whichever is less
trimming.
Chairman Mueller stated that because of the wording that the trees be trimmed to 12
feet or the 1989 level whichever is the least amount of trimming, he was inclined not to
support the motion as stated as he did not think that it would preserve the view from
1989, which the ordinance directs be done.
Commissioner Van Wagner asked if it was also part of the Planning Commission's job
to maintain the health of the tree in the trimming, and was concerned about trimming
lower than 10 to 12 feet of the tree.
Chairman Mueller felt that it was part of the Planning Commission's job, however he felt
this was done by looking at the trees at the 1989 level. He stated that it was hard for
him to believe, based on evidence stated at this hearing and in other cases, that
trimming one or two feet more would harm the tree.
Commissioner Van Wagner asked Chairman Mueller how he would like to see the
motion stated.
Chairman Mueller answered that he thought it would be better worded to trim the trees
10 to 12 feet or the level of the red line, whichever is lower
Director/Secretary repeated the motion to trim 12 feet off of the overall height of each or
the 1989 level of the foliage as depicted on the photograph, whichever results in less
trimming and to shape the trees.
The motion failed on a vote of (3-3) with Commissioners Karp, Knight, and
Chairman Mueller dissenting.
Commissioner Karp stated that he could not vote for the motion because he felt that the
trees should be trimmed down to the red line shown on the photograph, which may be
more than 12 feet.
Commissioner Gerstner asked if the Planning Commission felt comfortable
recommending an amount of trimming greater than what the arborist has stated the tree
can stand.
Commissioner Karp answered that he is more interested in preserving the view He did
not think that trimming the tree slightly less than 12 feet would kill the tree and he was
willing to take that chance
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 12
Commissioner Tetreault stated that he is not an arbonst and does not know what the
tolerance is for these trees and trimming beyond the recommended one third. He also
stated that he had been to Dr. Kaye's property and noted that these are not trees that
are on a slope surrounded by other trees, but rather Dr. Kaye has built his patio and
other improvements in his backyard around these trees. He felt if these trees die and
have to be removed will be a considerable impact to Dr. Kaye's trees He therefore was
uncomfortable suggesting the trees be cut below what the arborist has recommended.
Director/Secretary Rojas explained that this is a view preservation case and that the
way the Ordinance is written is that if trees grow over the documented 1989 view and
are blocking that view they have to be lowered, and view is the controlling factor
Further, the Ordinance does not address the issue of the trees if they are harmed or die
because of the trimming.
Commissioner Tetreault stated that if the Ordinance does not take into consideration the
health of the trees and is wholly the preservation of an existing view from 1989, he will
reconsider his position.
Commissioner Knight moved to adopt P.C. Resolution No. 2004-07; affirming the
decision of the Director of Planning, Building, and Code Enforcement and
approving View Preservation Permit No. 63 as suggested by staff, seconded by
Commissioner Karp. Approved, (6-0)
RECESS AND RECONVENE
At 9:50 p.m. the Planning Commission took a short recess until 10:00 p.m. at which time
they reconvened
PUBLIC HEARINGS
5. Revision to Conditional Use Permit No. 185 (Case ZON2003-00683): 5755
Palos Verdes Drive South
Associate Planner Blumenthal presented the staff report, explaining the request was to
install 13 Tight standards in the parking lot at Wayfarer's Chapel He explained that
Wayfarer's Chapel was requesting the lights standards be a maximum height of 13 feet
6 inches, however he noted that the Municipal Code limits the light standard height to
10 feet unless the Planning Commission can make a finding that a deviation in the
height is required for public safety He added that staff has not received any information
that the addition of 3 foot 6 inch height would be required for the public safety of the
property. He explained the design of the light standards and the amount of light they
will project, noting that staff does not feel there will be any projection of light off of the
property. He noted a change to page 2 of the Resolution, which says that the parking
lot light standard maximum height is 13 feet 6 inches. He stated this should read 10
feet to incorporate staffs recommended condition of approval. He stated that staff was
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 13
recommending the Planning Commission approve the revision to the Conditional Use
Permit, subject to the conditions of approval
Commissioner Cote disclosed that she was copied on an e-mail correspondence to
Commissioner Knight from a neighbor of Wayfarer's Chapel who had objections to this
proposed project.
Commissioner Knight explained that the neighbor's concern was that the wattage in the
bulbs will affect the night sky and what they can see from their house at night.
Commissioner Knight noted that he had recommended to this person that he contact
the Planning Department with his concerns
Commissioner Knight asked staff if the Resolution specifies that the bulbs will be 50
watts or that the lighting fixture will have a maximum rating of 50 watts.
Associate Planner Blumenthal responded that condition 9 of the Conditions of Approval
specifies that the bulbs cannot exceed 50 watts
Commissioner Cote questioned whether the Planning Commission could restrict the
lighting fixtures to 50 watts, but higher wattage bulbs could be installed.
Commissioner Gerstner noted that something like that could occur, however it would be
unlikely as it would create a hazard.
Chairman Mueller asked if the lowering height of the Tight standards below 10 feet could
adequately Tight the parking lot
Associate Planner Blumenthal answered that staff had not analyzed lowering the lights
below 10 feet.
Commissioner Karp asked if the request for lighting an indication that there will be more
evening events at Wayfarer's Chapel and are the evening events permitted under the
Conditional Use Permit.
Associate Planner Blumenthal answered that in 2002 the Planning Commission
approved a revision to the CUP to allow additional events in the evening, and because
of these additional evening events Wayfarer's Chapel feels they need additional lighting
in the parking lots for security purposes
Chairman Mueller opened the public hearing.
Reverend Harvey Tafel 5755 Palos Verdes Drive South appreciated the Planning
Commission's help with the problem they are having at the Chapel with the darkness in
the parking area and he felt that the lights will go a long way to help the people walk the
premises in safety. He stated that the 10 -foot height limit was acceptable and will abide
by the decision of the Planning Commission.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 14
Eric Wright 24680 Piuma Road, Malibu (architect) stated that he was accepting staffs
recommendations to limit the height of the light standards to 10 feet.
Chairman Mueller asked Mr. Wright to comment on limiting the wattage of the fixtures
as well as the wattage of the bulbs.
Mr. Wnght responded that he will comply with staffs recommendations regarding the
wattage of the bulbs, however limiting the fixture wattage would most likely involve
having to manufacture special fixtures, as fixtures are not made to limit to a certain size
wattage, especially lighting for parking.
Commissioner Tetreault asked what security issues were involved prompting the
request for more lights
Mr. Wright answered that the main issue was people going to and from their cars and
walking through a dark parking lot.
Chairman Mueller closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Knight stated that he was uncomfortable with the fixtures not having
some type of limitation on the wattage, but understood the applicant's statement that it
was not feasible to limit the wattage of the fixtures. He asked staff how the community
will be assured that the wattage of the fixtures will be maintained.
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that staff could not assure the community that the
wattage will remain at a set wattage, however he noted that there is a condition in place
that is binding and the applicant is on record that they will abide by the condition, and if
there are any complaints brought to staff, staff will investigate and take action.
Commissioner Knight asked if there was any analysis done on the cumulative impacts
of all of the different portions of the Conditional Use Permit as to lighting.
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that there was not.
Commissioner Karp moved to adopt P.C. Resolution No. 2004-08 thereby
approving the revision to Conditional Use Permit No. 185 as presented by staff,
seconded by Commissioner Van Wagner. Approved, (7-0).
6. Height Variation Permit (Case ZON2003-00599): 2027 Delasonde Drive
Associate Planner Schonborn presented the staff report, explaining the scope of the
project and the need for a Height Variation Permit. He stated that staff could not make
the necessary findings regarding view impairment and privacy issues to approve the
height variation, and showed slides on a power point presentation which depicted the
proposed addition. He also stated that staff was concerned there would be significant
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 15
cumulative view impairment caused by granting the application. He noted that the
parcel next door to the subject property currently maintains a one-story residence and if
they were to propose a second -story addition, the cumulative view impairment that
would result would be significant. He stated that this application was also assessed
using the guidelines under the new Urgency Ordinance and staff determined that the
one-story portions of the addition which are tied into the second -story addition do not
result in any view impairment. He stated that staff could not make all of the findings in a
positive manner, and staff was therefore recommending denial without prejudice of the
proposed project.
Commissioner Cote asked staff how they came to the conclusion that the proposed
project was compatible with the neighborhood.
Associate Planner Schonborn explained that, as viewed from Delasonde Drive, staff
believes the second story design is integrated with the existing one-story structure by
creating gable roof elements that slope into the structure and have shorter second -story
facades that help articulate the second story. He stated that dividing up the ridge lines
breaks up the appearance of the facade, creating three facade elements along the front.
Because of this design, staff felt the proposed addition does not look massive or bulky
and the additional square footage is not evident
Commissioner Cote asked if the neighborhood compatibility assessment was done just
from Delasonde Drive.
Associate Planner Schonborn answered that most of the neighborhood compatibility
assessment was done from Delasonde Drive, however some was done from a section
of Montereina Drive as well.
Commissioner Van Wagner asked staff if there had been an attempt to work with the
applicant to mitigate some of the concerns raised in the staff report
Associate Planner Schonborn explained that before the application was deemed
complete staff had done several site visits, and determined that there were view
impairment and privacy issues that would lead to staff not supporting the project. He
stated that these concerns were conveyed to the applicant, however the applicant felt
they could make a case to the Planning Commission as to why they did not think there
was significant view impairment or privacy issues. He noted that the applicant has been
very receptive throughout the project but wanted to bring this design before the
Planning Commission to get, if nothing else, some type of feedback.
Chairman Mueller opened the public hearing.
Mark DiBacco 578 W. 18th Street, San Pedro, stated that he is a general contractor
working with the applicants and that prior to submitting the application they had been
working with staff and had received no negative feedback about the project. However,
after submitting the formal application it was apparent there was some view impairment
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 16
and privacy issues raised by staff. He stated that he and the owners have only recently
received the staff report and the letters from the neighbors and that the owners are
more than willing to attempt to accommodate the things that are causing opposition.
David Galuppo 28709 Montereina Drive stated that he is against the two-story addition
because of privacy impact to his backyard. He stated that one of the reasons he bought
his house was because of the privacy in the backyard area
Commissioner Cote asked Mr Galuppo to identify what specifically concerned him
regarding the issue of privacy.
Mr Galuppo responded that he was concerned that windows on the second story could
look directly into his backyard.
Vicky Barreda 28032 Calzada Drive stated that she recently purchased her home and
did so because of the view and the privacy that the house has She was very
disappointed that the second story of the proposed addition blocks so much of her view,
and urged the Planning Commission to deny this application.
Commissioner Cote asked what specific viewing area the picture in the Power Point
presentation was taken from.
Associate Planner Schonborn answered the picture was taken from the living
room/dining room area, which was determined to be the primary viewing area.
Bob Barreda 28032 C itzada Drive stated that he currently enjoys a 180 -degree view
from his family room and living room, noting that it is a multi-component view as he has
a view of the ocean, Vincent Thomas Bridge, and downtown Long Beach He stated
that the proposed second story addition obstructs the view, from the north point of the
silhouette to the south point of the silhouette. He requested the Planning Commission
support the staff recommendations and deny the project as submitted. He distributed
several photographs taken from his property showing the existing view and how the
silhouette cuts through his view of the Vincent Thomas Bridge
Commissioner Cote asked Mr. Barreda what, if any, recommendations he had to
mitigate the impact of the addition to the views on his property.
Mr. Barreda did not know of a way to mitigate the view impairment from his property, as
he did not think the second story could be lowered enough to allow the view.
Joan Bell 28203 Montereina Drive stated that her view is a pastoral view that goes out
the back, as there are no rooftops to the right of her or behind her She stated a
neighbor built a 13 -foot wall without permits that blocks a portion of her view, and now
this addition will further enclose her property. She felt the silhouette looks directly onto
her property and her pool, and the proposed balcony will also look directly into her
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 17
property. She felt this proposed addition will cause her to lose her pastoral view, her
sunsets, and her privacy.
Commissioner Cote asked staff to clarify where the proposed addition was in regards to
the Bell property.
Associate Planner Schonborn showed a photograph taken from the Bell property,
showing where the proposed balcony would be located
Carl Bell 28203 Montereina Drive stated that he is not an engineer, however he was
concerned that the new structure may cause more pressure against his patio area, as it
is above his property, which may cause additional cracking to his pool and patio area.
Mark DiBacco (in rebuttal) stated that the owners are willing to make adjustments to the
proposed project and take into consideration the neighbor's concerns, in an effort to do
some type of addition on the property.
Commissioner Gerstner asked Mr. DiBacco if he has considered a single story addition
rather than a two-story addition.
Mr. DiBacco answered that the addition is only increasing the lot coverage from 20
percent to 30 percent and noted that the majority of the lot is not flat. He noted that
hillside construction, which is what will be involved with a single story addition, will be
significantly more expensive.
Commissioner Gerstner asked Mr. DiBacco if he was sure hillside construction would be
involved
Mr. DiBacco answered that he was willing to evaluate all of the options at this point.
Commissioner Knight asked if it was feasible to lower the ridgeline of the roof so as not
to impair the neighbor's view of the Vincent Thomas Bridge and flexibility in terms of the
balcony and windows to address some of the privacy issues.
Mr. DiBacco felt that both lowering the ridgeline and changing some of the windows and
balcony were possible
Chairman Mueller closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Cote stated that she agrees with staff in that she cannot make the
necessary findings for view and privacy and was very concerned with the cumulative
affect of the proposed addition on the neighborhood. She was pleased that the
applicant has expressed a willingness to work with staff and the neighbors to address
the concerns raised. She added that she was concerned with neighborhood
compatibility in terms of the bulk and mass of the proposed addition, but if the view
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 18
impact related issues bring the overall height of the project down it might address her
overall concerns with neighborhood compatibility.
Commissioner Cote moved to support the staff recommendation to adopt P.C.
Resolution No. 2004-09 denying without prejudice the proposed Height Variation,
seconded by Commissioner Knight.
Commissioner Karp stated that this project as proposed is totally incompatible,
unworkable, and impacts so many other people that he cannot support it, and therefore
he supports the motion made by Commissioner Cote
Commissioner Gerstner agreed with Commissioner Cote, adding that this is a
predominately one-story neighborhood and because of the topography of the
neighborhood it will be extremely difficult to build a two-story residence that will not
block someone else's view. He was pleased that the applicant is willing to work with the
neighbors and staff and felt that there is significant opportunities to solve the problem
and satisfy everyone's concerns.
Commissioner Knight agreed with Commissioner Cote's statements, especially those
concerning neighborhood compatibility with respect to bulk and mass.
Chairman Mueller also agreed with the comments of the other Commissioners adding
that he felt the view impairment to the neighbor above is significant and doing a second
story addition of any size on this property will be difficult. He felt the way the proposed
addition is designed is to maximize the square footage of the house, however the
design is imposing on other properties in terms of privacy and view impairment. He
agreed with the staff recommendation to deny the project without prejudice to allow the
applicant to work with the neighbors and staff and redesign the project
Director/Secretary Rojas noted that staff found that the neighborhood compatibility
findings could be made, and that adopting the motion as stated would include that
finding. He stated that the Planning Commission could ask staff to change that finding if
they felt the finding could not be made.
Chairman Mueller moved to amend the motion to approve the staff report, with
the exception of the neighborhood compatibility finding, seconded by
Commissioner Gerstner. The amendment to the motion was approved, (7-0).
The amended motion to support the staff recommendation to adopt P.C.
Resolution No. 2004-09 with the exception of the finding for neighborhood
compatibility, thereby denying without prejudice the proposed height variation
passed, (7-0).
NEW BUSINESS
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 19
7. Planning Commission's presentation to the General Plan Update Steering
Committee
Commtssioner Cote explained that she was requesting a replacement for herself on the
General Plan Steering Committee, as it has been difficult for her to attend the meetings
due to an increase in responsibility associated with her job. She explained the
responsibilities of the General Plan Update Steering Committee and the sub -committee
that she was a part of.
Chairman Mueller suggested that Commissioners Karp or Knight, who were at one time
on the General Plan Steering Committee, it they would be interested in representing the
Planning Commission on this committee.
Commissioner Karp responded that he would be happy to represent the Planning
Commission on the General Plan Steering Committee.
Commissioner Knight responded that he would like to be on the committee, however
there is the possibility of another committee being formed that he would prefer to be a
part of and therefore suggested Commissioner Karp represent the Planning
Commission on the General Plan Steering Committee.
The Planning Commission unanimously approved Commissioner Karp to represent the
Planning Commission to the General Plan Steering Committee.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
8. Minutes of February 10. 2004
Commissioner Knight noted that on page 14 of the minutes a question he asked staff
had been left out of the minutes and requested it be included.
The minutes were approved as amended, (6-0-1) with Commissioner Cote
abstaining since she was not present at that meeting.
ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
9. Pre -Agenda for the meeting of March 9. 2004
Chairman Mueller noted that the selection of a Vice Chairman should be added to the
March 9 agenda.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 11:55 p.m.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 24, 2004
Page 20