PC MINS 20030422Approved
May 13, 2003
CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES�'
PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
APRIL 22, 2003
CALL TO ORDER
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Long at 7:03 p.m at the Fred Hesse
Community Room, 29301 Hawthorne Boulevard
FLAG SALUTE
Commissioner Duran Reed led the assembly in the Pledge of Allegiance
ATTENDANCE
Present- Commissioners Cartwright, Duran Reed, Lyon, Vice Chairman Mueller,
Chairman Long
Absent Commissioners Cote and Tomblin were excused
Also present were Director of Planning, Building, and Code Enforcement Rous,
Associate Planner Blumenthal, Associate Planner Schonborn, Assistant Planner
Luckert, and Recording Secretary Peterson
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
Commissioner Cartwright moved to approve the agenda as presented, seconded by
Vice Chairman Mueller Approved, (5-0).
COMMUNICATIONS
Director/Secretary Rous noted that at the April 15 meeting, the City Council had
formally adopted the resolution overturning the Planning Commission's decision on the
CPH lot change He also distributed two items of correspondence regarding Agenda
Item No. 3.
Vice Chairman Mueller thanked the City for the opportunity to go to the Planning
Conference in San Diego
Chairman Long reported that he had received a phone call from Mr. Katherman
regarding the continuance of Agenda Item 1 He also reported on his attendance at the
Mayor's Breakfast.
COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE (REGARDING NON -AGENDA ITEMS)
None
CONTINUED BUSINESS
Variance, Height Variation and Grading Permit (Case No. ZON2002-00388):
6512 Nancy Road
Associate Planner Schonborn explained that the owner had submitted a request for a
continuance until the next scheduled Planning Commission meeting.
Commissioner Cartwright moved to continue the item to the meeting of May 13,
2003, seconded by Commissioner Lyon. Approved, (5-0).
PUBLIC HEARINGS
2. Height Variation Permit Case No. ZON2002-00623): 4105 Stalwart Drive
Commissioner Duran Reed stated that she had not had the opportunity to visit the
property and therefore recused herself from the hearing for this matter
Associate Planner Schonborn presented the staff report He explained the scope of the
proposed project and noted that during the notification process there had been a
comment from a neighbor, resulting in a modification to the plan to move the addition
one foot back from the front property line, resulting in a 25 -foot front yard setback for the
first floor He noted that the modification is incorporated into the plans before the
Planning Commission, and the analysis is based on that modification. He explained
that staff could make the 9 findings required to grant a height variation application
Therefore, staff is recommending the Planning Commission conditionally approve the
application.
Vice Chairman Mueller asked staff if there were any photographs available to show the
proposed addition, as he was having trouble with the finding regarding the blocking of a
view.
Associate Planner Schonborn displayed photos through a power point presentation, and
pointed out the area of the Vice Chairman's concern. He noted that it was staff's
determination that the proposed addition would only very slightly rise into the neighbor's
view He noted that the photo displayed was taken from a standing position from 4104
Dauntless Drive He noted that the neighbors were concerned that the ocean view
would be partially blocked when they were sitting down He stated that when looking at
the proposed addition and the location with respect to their overall view, staff
determined that the view blockage was very minimal
Planning Commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 2
Jure Sestich 479 W. 6th Street, San Pedro, stated that he had worked closely with the
Planning Department and the immediate neighbors when designing the proposed
addition, as he wanted to make it as unobtrusive as possible, and felt that this design
accomplished just that.
Vice Chairman Mueller asked if there was any way that the portion of the addition that
he felt may be blocking a portion of the neighbor's view could be reduced to recover the
area that would be blocked.
Mr. Sestich answered that reducing the roof pitch in that area would mean that the
addition would not blend as nicely with the existing home, and he was not sure it was
worth the redesign for such a small portion.
Commissioner Cartwright commented that the picture submitted along with the drawings
made it much easier for him to see that this proposed addition fit nicely into the
neighborhood and the design does minimize the size and the scale of the project
Don Jortner 4049 Stalwart Drive stated that he is a neighbor and is satisfied with the
setbacks discussed in the revised plans.
Chairman Long closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Cartwright stated that he visited the home at 4114 Dauntless Drive and
agreed with staff that the view impairment was very minimal He also asked the owner
at 4114 Dauntless Drive to make certain, if he had a real concern about the proposed
addition, to be present at the meeting. He noted that the property owner was not at the
meeting. He felt that he could make all of the findings necessary for a height variation
and supported the staff recommendation.
Commissioner Lyon felt the project was well planned and well coordinated with the
neighbors and did not have any problem making the findings He stated that he too had
gone to the property at 4114 Dauntless to see the potential view impairment and found
it to be insignificant. He therefore agreed with the staff recommendation.
Vice Chairman Mueller felt the project was a good one and was only exploring the
possibility of lowering the ridge height on the east end of the structure to relieve any
view impairment to the neighboring property He was pleased that the setback had
changed, and felt that the home was designed in such a way as to fit well into the
neighborhood He therefore supported the staff's recommendation.
Chairman Long agreed that there was only a very minimal view impairment, and felt that
this proposed addition was designed in such a way as to minimize the impairment. He
stated that he could make all of the necessary findings and supported the staffs
recommendation.
Planning Commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 3
Commissioner Lyon moved to adopt P.C. Resolution No. 2003-15 thereby
approving Case No. ZON2002-00623 as amended to reflect the setback change,
seconded by Commissioner Cartwright. Approved, (4-0-1) with Commissioner
Duran Reed abstaining.
3. General Plan Amendment, Zone Change, Coastal Specific Plan
Amendment, and Environmental Assessment Permit (Case No. ZON2003-
00035 and ZON2003-000113): 6100 Palos Verdes Drive South
Associate Planner Blumenthal presented the staff report. He gave a brief history of the
property and noted that the land use had originally been designated residential but was
changed to commercial in 1997. He stated that in October, 2002 the current property
owner requested a General Plan Amendment Initiation Request which allows the
applicant the opportunity to receive feedback from the City Council on the proposed
General Plan amendment. He noted that the City Council did not provide any pertinent
feedback related to the proposed change in land use and did not deny the request from
going forward. He explained that there are two cases before the Planning Commission:
one being the applicant's request for a General Plan and Coastal Specific Plan land use
amendment to change the property from commercial to residential and to rezone the
property, and the other is a city initiated zone text amendment to the non -conforming
section of the Development Code. He explained that the proposed text amendment
would require developments on parcels where the zoning changes be brought into
conformance with the parking standards of the new zoning designation He stated that
the proposed zone change would bring the property Into consistency with the other
residential land uses along Sea Cove Drive and staff was of the opinion that the
proposed General Plan amendment is consistent with the General Plan and the
residential land use would not be contrary to any of the goals or policies in the General
Plan. Regarding the Coastal Specific Plan, staff felt that since residential uses tend to
cause less impact to the surrounding area than commercial uses and that since Sub
Region 4 is primarily single family uses, the proposed amendment would not be
contrary to the Coastal Specific Plan or to the General Plan. Therefore, staff was
recommending approval of the General Plan amendment, zone change, Coastal
Specific Plan amendment, and zone text amendment
In reviewing the staff report, Commissioner Duran Reed asked why there was such a
difference in the depths of the different borings on the property
Associate Planner Blumenthal answered that the borings were done to determine soil
contamination, and that the borings were different lengths because they were going
down until no contamination was found in the soil
Commissioner Cartwright stated that there was private property adjacent to this property
along Palos Verdes Drive South, and asked if the land use designation for that property
was residential
Planning Commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 4
Associate Planner Blumenthal answered that the property immediately to the west is
Wayfarer's Chapel office building, and that property is zoned commercial To the west
of that would be the fire station, which is zoned institutional.
Commissioner Cartwright asked if there was access to the property from Palos Verdes
Drive South when it was a gas station.
Associate Planner Blumenthal answered that when there was a gas station at the site
there were driveways on Palos Verdes Drive South.
Vice Chairman Mueller asked if the fire department had discussed with staff any interest
in obtaining the property to expand the existing fire station.
Associate Planner Blumenthal answered that when projects such as this are reviewed,
the fire department is made aware of the projects through the environmental review, at
which time they are given time to comment. To his knowledge, the fire department has
not expressed any type of interest or that they needed additional stations or that they
needed to expand the existing station.
Vice Chairman Mueller was concerned that there were an increasing number of new
homes and projects along Palos Verdes Drive South, and questioned whether the Fire
Department would eventually need to expand their station.
Chairman Long opened the public hearing.
Dana Ireland 30 Narcissa Drive explained that he is in the process of purchasing the
property and that the current owner has, over the years, leased the property out over
the years. He stated that in purchasing the property he looked at the viability of the
property, and felt that the need for someone to have a remote office in this area is
diminishing greatly over time, especially with the advances in technology. He felt that if
the property were to remain commercial it would be vacant a large percentage of the
time. He stated that he would like to remodel the existing structure and move his family
in He stated that he was open to building garages, as he wanted the garages to store
his cars He explained that he met most of the residents in the 500 -foot radius of the
property, and all but one was very supportive of the project. He stated that he was
taking this piece of property and reverting it back to a residential use, which was the
master plan use for the property. He explained that the modifications that he will make
to the site will be minimal and everything he will build will go towards the back of the
site
Chairman Long closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Duran Reed stated that one of her concerns about the property was the
potential contamination and the liability to subsequent owners for a property that has
had a gas station on it, and felt that it was something that should be taken into
consideration when making a decision about the property.
Planning Commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 5
Commissioner Lyon stated that he agreed with the staff recommendations. Regarding
liability, he felt that the only one that had any potential liability was Mr Ireland, and he
,has said he is very comfortable with the situation and is trying to err on the side of
conservatism He stated that he could support the project.
Commissioner Cartwright asked if the Planning Commission were to approve the zone
change to residential, could a commercial use continue on the property.
Associate Planner Blumenthal explained that the commercial use could continue until
such time as the occupancy of the building changes.
Director/Secretary Rojas added that the use would be considered non -conforming and
the Code does say that if the non -conforming use is discontinued for 180 days then the
non -conforming status is lost.
Commissioner Cartwright supported the project and did not have a concern with the
issue of liability. He noted that the topography of the property was such that you really
don't notice the property as it is sunken down from Palos Verdes Drive South.
Vice Chairman Mueller felt that the Planning Commission should also consider the
needs and interests of the public when considering this project He felt that the property
might be better served with an institutional zoning which would allow some type of
service to be established there, such as the Fire Department, which would help better
serve the residents of the area. He felt this property would be a perfect place for the
Fire Department to expand and he was a little reluctant to turn the property into a
residential use. He suggested that staff conduct a study to try to see what type of
infrastructure might be needed along Palos Verdes Drive South in the future.
Chairman Long stated that there was a letter in the staff report from the Regional Water
Quality Control Board stating that there was no further action required on the property.
He felt that was the best thing the Planning Commission could go on in terms of liability
and contamination, and did not think the Planning Commission could or should second
guess the Board. He did not think there was any liability to the City and that any liability
discussions should be between the seller and the buyer. In discussing whether or not
the property should be rezoned, he felt that getting rid of spot zoning is good and in the
public interest. He noted that the Fire Department has not made known any intention of
the need to expand their station, and felt that there was always the possibility of rather
than expanding the station the Fire Department may want to move elsewhere. He
noted that whatever the Fire Department decides they want to do, they have the power
of eminent domain and any residential property they may want they have the ability to
acquire He therefore felt that he could support the staff recommendations in the staff
report
Director/Secretary Rojas explained that when it comes to infrastructure planning, the
City leaves the issue to the Fire Department He stated that to date, he was not aware
Planning commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 6
of any notification from the Fire Department on the need to expand or upgrade their
facility. He stated that the Fire Department has received notices of previous EIRs at
Long Point and Ocean Trails, and they have received this Negative Declaration. Having
received no comments from the Fire Department, he did not feel there was any reason
to believe that there was any need on their part to expand
Chairman Long agreed with the comment made by Mr. Ireland about how the changes
in technology are rendering the remote offices, which he felt was the only logical
commercial use for the property other than a service type of use Therefore, he felt that
what was left was this leftover piece of property, which was a piece of spot zoning left
over from decisions made by the County, which he felt would not work left as is.
Commissioner Lyon felt that the City should let the Fire Department do It's own planning
and noted that if they wanted property to expand this would not be the logical piece. He
felt the Fire Department would want the property immediately adjacent to the applicant's
property. He therefore felt that this was a non -issue. He also felt that the City would
rather have more residential property of this type rather than commercial property, and
fully agreed with the Chairman's comments on spot zoning.
Commissioner Lyon moved to adopt P.C. Resolution No. 2003-16; thereby
recommending the City Council adopt a Negative Declaration and approve the
Zone Text Amendment, General Plan Amendment, Coastal Specific Plan
Amendment, and Zone Change (Case Nos. ZON2003-00036 and ZON2003-00113)
as presented by staff, seconded by Commissioner Duran Reed. Approved, (4-0-1)
with Vice Chairman Mueller abstaining.
RECESS AND RECONVENE
At 8:20 p.m the Planning Commission took a short recess until 8 30 p.m at which time
they reconvened
PUBLIC HEARINGS (CONT)
4. Fences, Walls, and Hedges Permit (Case ZON2002-00560) 5530 Littlebow
Road
Assistant Planner Luckert presented the staff report explaining that the Director had
approved the Fence, Wall, and Hedges Permit application, with conditions, in February.
He explained the scope of the project, which is a 3 -foot high wall running parallel to the
rear property line of 5530 Littlebow Road, and noted that the property owner at 5531
Shoreview Drive appealed the Director's decision to the Planning Commission. He
stated that the Director was able to make the three required findings to grant the permit,
and showed pictures of the proposed location of the wall. Therefore, staff was
recommending the Planning Commission deny the appeal and uphold the Director's
Decision to grant the Fence, Wall, and Hedge Permit
Planning Commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 7
Commissioner Duran Reed asked if the proposed fence would be placed on the
property line or inside the applicant's property line
Assistant Planner Luckert answered that the fence was planned to be placed just inside
the applicant's property line.
Commissioner Duran Reed asked if the location of the property line was determined by
a survey.
Assistant Planner Luckert responded that staff has a survey which does not point out
where the fence will be, however staff and the applicant were able to locate on the
survey where the fence will be located.
Commissioner Duran Reed asked if placing the fence can be done entirely by accessing
the applicant's property and not having to use the neighbor's property
Assistant Planner Luckert answered that to his knowledge construction can be done by
accessing only the applicant's property
Director/Secretary Rojas added that when there is proposed construction right on the
property line staff will suggest to the applicant that the fence should be moved away
from the property line so that they will not need to use the neighbor's property. He
stated that if there is still a concern from the Planning Commission, staff can ask the
applicant to move the fence back another foot or so.
Commissioner Cartwright noted that in the appellant's letter she stated that there were
several fences in the neighborhood made of glass or similar material He stated that he
had looked in the neighborhood and did not see any glass walls that delineated property
lines, and asked staff if they were aware of any in that neighborhood.
Assistant Planner Luckert answered that he had seen a few, but felt that those walls
had been placed by the upsiope neighbor rather than the down slope neighbor.
Commissioner Cartwright asked if the foliage in the photos belongs to the appellant.
Assistant Planner Luckert answered that the shrubs in the photo do belong to the
appellant.
Vice Chairman Mueller asked if this proposal would be defined as a wall or a fence
according to the Code.
Assistant Planner Luckert answered that it is considered a wall because it does not
meet the Development Code definition of a fence, which requires 80 percent light and
air.
Planning Commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 8
}
Vice Chairman Mueller asked how much higher this wall could go before, in staffs
opinion, it would begin to impair views.
Assistant Planner Luckert felt the wall could go up to five or six feet before it would
begin to impair views from the neighboring property
Vice Chairman Mueller asked staff if they knew of any other wails such as this
constructed at the top of a slope.
Director/Secretary Rojas responded that through the years there have been requests for
walls at the top of slopes
Chairman Long added that there were a number of walls similar to this one in his
neighborhood, however it was more typical for the wall to be built by the owner at the
top of the slope rather than the owner at the bottom of the slope
Chairman Long opened the public hearing.
Clyde LaGue 5530 Littlebow Road explained that after purchasing his property he
wanted to determine where his property lines were, and noted that there seemed to be
some difference of opinion as to the property line on the south side of his property
Therefore he decided to have the property surveyed, after which he invited all the
neighbors over to discuss the results. He further notified all neighbors that he planned
to erect a property boundary fence along the official property line, and worked with all of
the neighbors to design a fence that was acceptable in height and design He stated
that he was very sensitive to view issues and tried to present plans that would not
impact the neighbor's view yet still achieve his purpose of obviously and unmistakably
marking the property boundary, thus eliminating any future property line and property
ownership discrepancies in the future He explained that the design of the fence was a
white, ranch style fence similar to those seen throughout the City near the bridal and
walking paths
Commissioner Cartwright stated that there was a fence approximately six feet down the
slope and asked Mr. LaGue if that was his fence
Mr. LaGue answered that it was his fence, and it was there when he bought the
property, however it was covered with overgrown foliage at the time and couldn't really
be seen He stated that it was his intention to remove the fence
Commissioner Cartwright asked Mr. LaGue if he knew who has been maintaining the
area of the slope above that existing fence.
Mr LaGue felt the resident to the southeast most likely maintained the property,
however there was considerable overgrowth in that specific area
Planning Commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 9
Commissioner Duran Reed asked Mr. LaGue if he has had any problems with people
trespassing onto his property.
Mr LaGue answered that he has not, and that the purpose for the fence was to
delineate his property from the neighbors.
Commissioner Duran Reed asked Mr. LaGue if he would have any objections to
lowering the height of the fence
Mr. LaGue answered that if it were necessary he would be open to suggestions. He
noted that in the photograph where the string line is located is actually at a height of 36
inches, and the upper runner of the fence will be 4 inches lower than the height of the
posts. Therefore, the most obstructive portion of the fence will only be at a height of 32
inches, 4 inches below the marked string line.
Vice Chairman Mueller asked if there were markers left on the property after the survey
was done.
Mr. LaGue explained that there were monuments at each position of the survey.
Vice Chairman Mueller asked if these monuments were sufficient to delineate the
property boundaries without erecting a wall
Mr LaGue answered that at the present time these markers were visible, however in
the future these markers will rot and deteriorate and will not be visible
Vice Chairman Mueller understood the desire to have a wall on the property line,
however he felt that Mr LaGue was requesting a wall at the top of a slope that would
obstruct portions of the neighbors view. He stated that he would rather see the wall
relocated so that it is completely out of the appellant's view. He asked Mr LaGue if he
wanted to control the foliage on that particular area and if that foliage would be visible
from his residence.
Mr. LaGue answered that he did want to control the foliage on his property and he could
see all of the foliage on the slope, as the slope is like a wall on his property.
Vice Chairman Mueller asked Mr LaGue if he would be willing to change the color of
the wall from bright white to a more natural wood appearance
Mr. LaGue answered that he was open to any solution to the issue
Chairman Long closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Cartwright stated that he had a difficult time determining what the view
impairment was in this situation He did not see the view impairment when he was at
the property, and he does not see the view impairment after viewing the photographs
Planning Commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 10
and listening to the discussions at the meeting. He felt that the option of a glass wall
would be much more of a view impairment than what the applicant is proposing He
noted that looking down where the fence would be placed one has a view of rooftops.
He agreed with the staff and did not think there was a view impairment worthy of the
Planning Commission's protection. He stated that if it were his property he too would
want to put something along the top to delineate the properties and he did not think that
a three-foot fence was unreasonable.
Commissioner Duran Reed agreed that the applicant had a right to fencing to show
property boundaries, however she noted a willingness on the applicant's part to work
with neighbors and possibly lower the fence and change the color from bright white to
something more natural. She felt that if the applicant were asked to lower the fence it
would still serve his purposes as well as satisfy his neighbor's concerns.
Commissioner Lyon agreed that the property owner had a right to build a legal,
conforming fence on his property. He felt that the type of fence the applicant was
proposing was common in this City, as well as other cities on the Peninsula He did not
feel there was any view impairment caused by the fence from either a standing or a
sitting position from inside the house and that the proposed fence improves the uphill
property, as the fence obscures some unsightly roof tops. He felt the appeal was
frivolous and the letter from the appellant unrealistic, and therefore supported the
Director's decision
Vice Chairman Mueller stated that the staff report was very clear in that this proposal
was for a wall and not a fence. He felt that this type of fence was more typical along
horse trails and was not the type that he would enjoy looking at in his backyard He
noted that the applicant has offered to lower the wall, and felt that the Planning
Commission should take advantage of that offer. Regarding the color of the wall, he felt
that a bright white wall would reflect the sun and cause even more of a view obstruction,
and felt that the Planning Commission should consider asking the wall to be painted a
natural color He did not think the appellant's request for a glass wall was a reasonable
request.
Chairman Long stated that he was very troubled by the appellant's letter, and that when
something is presented to the Planning Commission that is so unreasonable, even
though it may contain within it some things that are reasonable, the issue becomes
clouded and difficult to make a decision He quoted portions of the letter to illustrate his
point: "I request that the owners of 5530 Littlebow Road be instructed to paint the wall
annually and maintain it from dry rot and termite damage, and that this responsibility run
with the land in perpetuity and if the maintenance is not done by the owners of 5530
Littlebow Road then the buyers of my property should be empowered to have the work
done and billed to the owners of 5530 Littlebow Road." He found the requests from the
appellant to be overreaching, unreasonable, and the expressed concerns to be
unsupported by evidence He felt that the Planning Commission should only consider
the application based on the findings that must be made He discussed the required
three findings, and felt that all three findings could be made. He noted that he would
Planning Commission Minutes
Apn122, 2003
Page 11
see the color of the fence something other than white, but did not think there was
anything in the findings or Code that would require the applicant to change the color.
Therefore, he supported the Director's determination to approve the permit, but felt that
sometime in the future the Planning Commission might want to explore whether there
should be some sort of standards of compatibility in the Fence, Wall, and Hedge Permit
process
Commissioner Lyon moved to adopt P.G. Resolution No. 2003-17, thereby
denying the appeal and upholding the Director's decision to approve the Fence,
Wall and Hedge Permit (Case No. ZON2002-00560), as presented by staff,
seconded by Commissioner Cartwright.
Vice Chairman Mueller suggested amending the motion to encourage the applicant to
work with staff to try to minimize the view impairment to the upslope neighbor by
lowering the wall, changing the color, or opening up the wall to become a fence which
meets the 80 percent light and air requirement of the Code
Commissioner Lyon did not accept the amendment to his motion, as he felt these were
concerns he felt were up to the applicant to discuss with his neighbor at his discretion,
and did not think it was proper to ask the applicant to work with the staff to reach a
resolution of that type.
Chairman Long seconded the proposed amendment for the purpose of discussion
Commissioner Cartwright felt that the applicant could work with the neighbor if that was
something he chose to do, and reiterated that he could not see any view impairment
caused by this proposed wall. He felt this was no more than a picket fence and that the
only reason it was called a wall was because the City had technical language in the
Code requiring anything that does not meet specific criteria be called a wall. He was
very uncomfortable with the Planning Commission discouraging the applicant from
delineating his property by a simple fence, and therefore could not support the proposed
amendment.
Vice Chairman Mueller stated that he would not like to encourage, but rather
discourage, future applicants from placing walls at the rear of their property when the
neighbor's property is upslope such as this one.
Chairman Long stated that he was disinclined to start heading down the path of
encouraging things that he has knowledge the Planning Commission can't require.
Therefore, he was withdrawing his second to the amendment. He would like to see the
wall be a color other than white, but did not think the Planning Commission had any
ability under the Code to require it
Commissioner Duran Reed seconded the amendment, explaining that the amendment
was only encouraging the applicant to work with staff and not requiring it. She stated
that the General Plan policy to preserve a semi -rural character in the City should be
Planning Commission Minutes
April22, 2003
Page 12
considered, and that this proposed wall did not comply with the policy of the General
Plan
The proposed amendment to the motion failed, (2-3) with Commissioners
Cartwright, Lyon, and Chairman Long dissenting.
Chairman Long noted the comments made by Commissioner Duran Reed regarding the
General Plan, however he noted that the Ordinance must implement the General Plan.
He noted that finding no 3 requires that the wall comply with the appropriate standards
and requirements of the City's Municipal Code and General Plan. He did not think the
Planning Commission could consider something as vague as what is semi -rural and
what is not Therefore, without an Ordinance telling him what is semi -rural and what is
not, if the wall complies with the Ordinance the Planning Commission should
recommend approval of the permit. He felt that the Planning Commission might, at
some future date, address the standards for fences and walls, as the City seems to
have been more careful to address the standards in the front yard than in the back yard
Commissioner Duran Reed agreed with Chairman Long that there are not actual
standards and requirements in the General Plan, just policies, which sometimes makes
decisions very difficult. However, since the applicant has indicated his willingness to
lower the fence and change the color, she would support the Director's decision.
Vice Chairman Mueller agreed with Commissioner Duran Reed's statements. He
strongly encouraged the applicant to work with his neighbor to work out a solution to the
wall that worked for both parties
The motion to deny the appeal and uphold the Director's decision passed (5-0).
5. Proposed recreational vehicle residential storage and street parking
regulations {Case No. ZON2002-00580: Citywide
Director/Secretary Rojas presented the staff report explaining that at the previous
hearing on the RV issue there were follow-up questions regarding the street parking
issues At this time, staff is recommending that the Planning Commission review the
information in the staff report, and recommend to the City Council that they take no
action on imposing additional street parking restrictions until the results from
implementing the proposed private parking restrictions can be evaluated
Commissioner Cartwright stated that he was surprised to see this on the agenda and
asked if this was on the agenda in response to the Planning Commission's request for
more information on the Costa Mesa parking ordinance
Director/Secretary Rojas answered that this item was on the agenda in response to that
request
Planning Commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 13
Commissioner Cartwright thought that the Planning Commission had decided not to
take any action on this item until after the six-month review so that they could have the
benefit of an analysis of what impact the new regulations have on the street parking.
Chairman Long discussed his original request that the on street parking issue be
addressed by the Planning Commission, however after reading the staff report and
given the preference of the Planning Commission as a whole at the last meeting to wait
and see how the off-street changes would affect the on -street, he felt it was a good idea
to wait six months to discuss on -street parking. He also felt that waiting six months
might also allow the Traffic Committee to address any safety issues there may be.
Vice Chairman Mueller agreed with Chairman Long, and added that a definition of over-
sized vehicle should also be discussed. He agreed that input from the Traffic
Committee was very important in regards to the safety aspects of parking RVs on the
street.
Commissioner Duran Reed also agreed that it was important to receive input from the
Traffic Committee as well as input from the two Planning Commissioners who were not
present at this meeting.
Chairman Long opened the public hearing.
Ernie Giannioses 534 Manitowac Drive stated that he was also representing the Good
Sam Club, Family Motor Coach Association, and the Parking Rights Coalition. He
stated that he had a hand in writing some of the proposed ordinances and would be
very disappointed in himself if the ordinance forced a major amount of vehicles to park
on the street. He felt that if, at the six month review, it was found that a large number of
RVs are forced to park in the street it may be necessary to not only discuss on street
parking, but the ordinances should be reviewed as well to find out why so many people
were forced to park on the street. He explained that he had contacted the Sheriffs
Department to find out what kind of on -street parking problems exist now, and was told
that there were not many, but that those they had were difficult to enforce. He asked
that the Planning Commission keep in mind that an RV is licensed by the State as a
private vehicle, just like a car, therefore whatever street laws are implemented must be
the same for any private vehicle as they would be for an RV
Tom Redfield 31273 Ganado Drive stated that everyone he is working with on the
Homeowners Council and other groups was very impressed with the progress made of
the RV issue He understood that the Sheriffs Department and staff could give a count
on the number of street parking complaints received in any given period, however the
system is not really indicative of the number of concerns and problems regarding street
parking He felt that there were many people who had valid concerns but did not go
through the formal system of putting in a complaint He felt that there was a need for
some type of system that would allow people to make their complaints, and asked that
the Planning Commission and staff not assume that because there are only three or
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Apnl 22, 2003
Page 14
four complaints a year that was all there was He reminded the Planning Commission
that RVs were not the only issue, there were also boats, inoperable cars, etc.
Commissioner Cartwright felt that the speakers raised an interesting point in that the
Planning Commission tends to gravitate towards RVs in their discussions on parking
issues, and acknowledged that there were problems with unhitched trailers, boats, and
inoperative cars. He felt it was important for staff to gather all complaints regarding not
only RVs, but also watercraft and any other type of applicable vehicles, and suggested
there be some type of system in place where all of these complaints can be gathered.
Commissioner Duran Reed stated that if a street parking ordinance were in affect
limiting the parking to 72 hours, signs would have to be posted throughout the City. She
felt that establishing a system where complaints could be accurately tallied was an
excellent idea.
Director/Secretary Rojas clarified that the purpose of bringing this to the Planning
Commission at this time was to get clarification on how to proceed with the on -street
parking issue, and if it was to be discussed six months after the Ordinance was adopted
or if the Planning Commission recommends that the City Council or Traffic Committee
discuss the issue concurrently with the Ordinance being implemented.
Chairman Long stated that he was persuaded that waiting six months after the
Ordinance is adopted is a good idea and would like to recommend that to the City
Council However, he would also like to recommend to the City Council that the Traffic
Committee give input on some of the issues discussed regarding street parking
Vice Chairman Mueller added that the Planning Commission recommend to the City
Council there be something established on the website where residents can easily
report on-site and street parking problems He felt this would encourage residents to
contact the staff with the problems and would give staff a more accurate assessment of
the parking problems in the City.
Commissioner Duran Reed added that something could be included in the newsletter
that is circulated to the residents.
Commissioner Cartwright moved that the Planning Commission recommend to
the City Council that no action be taken on imposing additional street parking
restrictions until the results from implementing the proposed private parking
restrictions can be evaluated. In addition, the Planning Commission would like
staff to look at ways that the public can be better informed about the parking
issue, and make sure there is a systems in place that will capture the information
needed to evaluate the parking. Further, that the City Council direct the Traffic
Committee to begin a study of on -street safety issues as a result of parking RVs,
boats, trailers, and large vehicles that can possibly obstruct traffic, seconded by
Commissioner Lyon.
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April 22, 2003
Page 15
Vice Chairman Mueller stated that he would like to see the City Council direct the Traffic
Committee to study the problem of on -street parking and come up with some sort of
policy or guidelines that can be incorporated into the discussions.
Commissioner Cartwright suggested asking the City Council for a report from the Traffic
Committee at the six-month review discussing the results and recommendations of their
study of the situation. He felt this report should be included in the staff report at the six-
month review.
The motion passed, (5-0).
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
6. Minutes of March 25, 2003
Commissioner Lyon noted a typo on page 3 of the minutes
Commissioner Duran Reed noted an omission on page 4 of the minutes
Commissioner Duran Reed moved to approve the minutes as amended, seconded
by Commissioner Cartwright. Approved, (4-0-1) with Vice Chairman Mueller
abstaining since he was absent from that meeting.
7. Minutes of April 8, 2003
Commissioner Lyon noted a typo on page 8 of the minutes.
Commissioner Cartwright moved to approve the minutes as amended, seconded
by Commissioner Duran Reed. Approved, (4-0-1) with Vice Chairman Mueller
abstaining since he was absent from that meeting.
Director/Secretary Rojas discussed with the Planning Commission ways to facilitate
corrections to the minutes He suggested it might help the Commissioners to receive
the draft minutes via electronic format as well as in their agenda packets. He noted that
the draft minutes were available on the website but the draft minutes could also be e-
mailed to the Planning Commissioners.
After a discussion the Planning Commission asked staff to, in addition to the minutes
included in the agenda packet, send the draft minutes to pc(&-rpv.com Any
Commissioner who wished could make their suggested changes to the minutes and e-
mail that back to staff. These suggested changes in hard copy form would then be
distributed to the Commissioners at the meeting
ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
Planning Commission Minutes
April 22, 2003
Page 16
Commissioner Duran Reed stated that she would be absent from the May 13, 2003
meeting
Commissioner Cartwright stated that he may possibly be absent from the May 13
meeting
Chairman Long stated that he will most likely be absent from both of the June Planning
Commission meetings.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 10:27 p.m.
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April 22, 2003
Page 17