PC MINS 200011280
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CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES
PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
NOVEMBER 28, 2000
,,-Approved
Dece r 2000
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Lyon at 7:00 p m at the Fred Hesse
Community Building, 27301 Hawthorne Boulevard.
FLAG SALUTE
Commissioner Mueller led the assembly in the Pledge of Allegiance.
ROLL CALL
Present Commissioners Mueller, Paulson, Vannorsdall, and Chairman Lyon
Commissioner Cartwright arrived at 7:10 p.m.
Absent Commissioner Long and Vice Chairman Clark were absent (excused).
Also present were Director of Planning, Building, and Code Enforcement Rojas,
Senior Planner Pfost, Senior Planner Fox, Associate Planner Mihranian, and
Recording Secretary Peterson.
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
There being no objection, Chairman Lyon approved the agenda as presented.
COMMUNICATIONS
Director/Secretary Rojas distributed a copy of an e-mail received from Commissioner
Long with suggested changes to the minutes He also reported that at the City
Council meeting of November 21, 2000 the City Council considered entering into a
second exclusive negotiating agreement with the developer for the affordable senior
housing project and that the item was continued to the meeting of December 12,
2000 Finally, Mr. Rojas reported that the City Council had elected not to have the
joint Planning Commission/City Council workshop
Commissioner Vannorsdall reported that the dates for the Planning Institute in
Monterey were March 21, 22, and 23 and that the View Restoration Commissioners
would also be attending the conference
CONSENT CALENDAR
1. Minutes of November 14, 2000
The Planning Commission reviewed the e-mail from Commissioner Long regarding
his suggested changes to the minutes. Chairman Lyon directed staff to review the
tape of the meeting to decide to what extent the revisions suggested by
Commissioner Long should be incorporated The Commission agreed.
Chairman Lyon noted a typo on page 12 of the minutes and asked for clarification
He also noted a grammatical change on page 13.
Without objection, the minutes were approved as amended, (5-0)
2. Conditional_ Use Permit No. 158 — Revision `C'. Coastal Permit No. 94 -
Revision `A', Encroachment Permit No. 32, and Sign Permit No. 1096 -
Resolution: RPV Associates, Tract No. 46628 (Oceanfront Estates),
Palos Verdes Drive West and Hawthorne Boulevard
Senior Planner Fox presented the staff report. He briefly summarized the conditions
and design standards that the Planning Commission had specified for the guard
booths He stated that staff had prepared the resolution to incorporate the design
standards, the standard conditions of approval for encroachment permits that are
specified in City Council Policy No. 31, and the condition of approval for a 6 -month
review.
Commissioner Vannorsdall made a statement for the record as to why he was voting
NO on the observation booths. He felt that it was the responsibility of the Planning
Commissioners to not only look at the immediate project at hand but to also consider
the long-term ramifications on the community as a whole By this he meant not just
the impact of the issue at hand on the general public but to consider the impact of
setting precedents that will be established in terms of future requests for observation
booths throughout the community. Commissioner Vannorsdall stated that if the
commission were to start this practice now, they would be faced with many more
applications for the same privilege in the future. The impact on the community will be
to encourage isolation of many areas of the city, one from another, while city policy
has always been to promote a city wide community feeling and participation in
community affairs and an aura of working together. He stated that the only other
observation booth that has been approved in the city to date was in Island View He
noted that they started with a manned booth, then reduced this to part-time manned
booth and then video camera only. The best he could determine is that this booth
has done very little to accomplish its original goal and had been cost prohibitive to
operate it for its original purpose. He felt that these booths were an intimidation to
the general public, who should be able to use the streets for which they were paying
maintenance, fire protection, and police protection. He felt very strongly that this was
Planning Commission Minutes
November 28, 2000
Page 2
a practice that should be turned down now and for all time. Therefore, he was voting
NO and hoped this issue could be resolved
Commissioner Cartwright stated that he did not disagree with the intent of what
Commissioner Vannorsdall was saying. He felt it was something that needed very
careful consideration However, he felt that the Planning Commission had
considered this application very carefully. The one area he suggested needed
clarification was on page 3, section 2b. He did not think the wording in this section
was strong enough and suggested including language that the guard booths would
not interfere with the public's access to the interior streets of the development
Chairman Lyon felt that the language adopted was a compromise position. He did
not see why anyone would want to drive through the interior portion of the
development if they didn't live there. He felt it was much different than access to the
parking lot and the coastal blufflops.
Commissioner Cartwright stated that it may be, but they were all public streets and
the public should be able to drive wherever they wanted to.
Chairman Lyon pointed out that one of the requirements was to provide signage on
the booths to indicate the roads were public and access was not restricted. He felt
the issue was adequately covered.
Senior Planner Fox noted that Condition No 26 on page 10 discussed the signage
on the booths and on page 12 Condition No 29 (h) discussed the restriction that no
person or vehicle will be required any type of identification or otherwise be restricted
or denied access by personnel in the booths
Commissioner Cartwright felt that the Commission had gone out of its way to say that
the guards will not interfere with the general public's ability to access the blufftops
and trail system. He felt that a sentence to the resolution's findings should be added
that all of the streets are public and the booths should not interfere with public
access
Commissioners Paulson and Mueller agreed with Commissioner Cartwright's
statements.
Director/Secretary Rojas stated that there would not be a problem adding that
language.
There being no objections, Chairman Lyon directed staff to add the appropriate
language to Section 2B of the Resolution
Commissioner Paulson noted Condition No 11 and said that in reading the original
approvals of the project his interpretation was that the fence should be 3 feet high
and 90 percent light and air. He was concerned that the shrubs planted, even at a
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November 28, 2000
Page 3
height of 3 feet, would eventually block the view through the fence. He stated that
this violated the 90 percent light and air fence requirement that the original approval
was trying to accomplish
Commissioner Vannorsdall agreed. He stated that the original intent of the Planning
Commission when the project was approved was to have no shrubs planted in front
of the fence.
Senior Planner Fox stated that the original conditions allowed for low shrubs and
ground cover
Chairman Lyon felt that the wording of the new condition allowed for the shrubs and
ground cover to grow to a height of 3 feet and have the possibility of becoming very
dense He asked staff if there could be some clarification made to the condition in
this new Resolution to address the issue
Director/Secretary Rous stated that the original conditions were not specific on
heights of shrubs but discussed the prohibition of significant view impairment, which
is discretionary. He felt the way to prevent the shrubs from becoming a continuous
hedge was to monitor them and ask the developer to thin them out periodically or to
add a condition to this resolution that states shrub heights more explicitly He
explained that the 90 percent light and air requirement referred to the fence and not
specifically the vegetation
Commissioner Cartwright suggested wording that stated the vegetation should not
exceed 3 feet or significantly impair views
Commissioner Vannorsdall felt the vegetation should be no more than 6 inches
above the ground
Commissioner Paulson stated that in reading the past minutes of the original
hearings that the view through the fencing was a very sensitive issue
Chairman Lyon felt that the wording in the original resolution allowed for ground
cover with a shrub every so often.
Commissioner Vannorsdall felt that even 12 inches in height was reasonable
Director/Secretary Rojas agreed that 12 inches was reasonable and that the intent of
the original approvals was for low-lying shrubs or ground cover.
Chairman Lyon suggested that ground cover be limited to a height not over 12 inches
and shrubs, which must be spaced no less than 12 feet apart and cannot exceed a
height of 3 feet
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November 28, 2000
Page 4
Commissioner Vannorsdall objected to the suggestion as he felt that would still block
the view from Palos Verdes Drive West.
Commissioner Cartwright suggested a compromise between one and three feet and
suggested vegetation should not exceed a height of 2 feet.
Chairman Lyon asked staff if they felt that changing condition 11 to read 2 feet rather
than 3 feet would be a problem to the developer.
Director/Secretary Rojas did not see a major problem but noted that a few existing
plants may have to be trimmed or removed.
Chairman Lyon opened the public hearing
Rob Katherman 19300 S Hamilton Avenue, Gardena stated that the Commission
had originally set the height limit at 3 feet based on the standard of the typical eye
level in an automobile, which was 3 Y2 feet. He was not sure that changing the
condition was an issue that should be before the Planning Commission. He did not
think it was possible to maintain all of the plants currently there at a level of 2 feet
and some would have to be replaced He felt that 2 feet was a difficult standard to
maintain However, he felt the developer would cooperate in any way the
Commission saw fit. He thought the developer might work with staff to accomplish
the Commission's goal of providing view corridors through the landscaping area and
removing some of the vegetation to accomplish this.
Chairman Lyon closed the public hearing.
Chairman Lyon noted that the requirement already stated that the fence had to be 90
percent open and suggested putting that same requirement on the landscaping by
saying that no shrub shall be more than 3 feet in height and collectively the
shrubbery shall not block the view to an extent exceeding 10 percent.
Director/Secretary Rojas stated that it was almost impossible to regulate vegetation
to a percentage standard He added that he had received no complaints from the
public regarding the existing vegetation, but rather had received many compliments
regarding the foliage. He felt that decorative and colorful groundcover could be
achieved at one foot, but there was the question of how to modify what was currently
existing to achieve the one -foot requirement
Commissioner Vannorsdall moved to after condition no. 11 to limit ground
cover and foliage to a height of no more than one foot, seconded by
Commissioner Mueller.
Chairman Lyon felt it would be appropriate to allow staff to work with the developer to
come up with appropriate restrictions that satisfy both the Planning Commission's
and the developer's wants
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November 28, 2000
Page 5
Commissioner Vannorsdall repeated his motion. The motion passed, (3-2) with
Commissioner Cartwright and Chairman Lyon dissenting.
Commissioner Paulson clarified that the issue that he raised and the reason he
raised it was not because he disliked the landscaping but because the Commission
would be approving a new condition that he felt conflicted with a previous project
condition.
Chairman Lyon re -opened the public hearing
Alyda White 32614 Coastsite Drive stated that she has served on the landscape
committee in her residential development for many years and stated that when plants
are trimmed in height they tend to grow thicker She noted that low growing ground
cover may mound up to up to 12 inches, but are not the kind of things referred to as a
hedge
Chairman Lyon closed the public hearing.
Chairman Lyon felt that the Planning Commission had come up with an irrational
change to the Resolution, and felt the Commission could have done better He
summarized that the current Resolution, as amended, will have a sentence added
into finding `B' under Section 2 to clarify that the public has access to all of the roads
in the community. The Commission also clarified Condition No. 11 so that the
maximum height of shrubs would be one foot instead of three feet.
The Planning Commission voted (4-1) with Commissioner Vannorsdall dissenting to
adopt P.C. Resolution No. 2000-41, as amended.
PUBLIC HEARINGS
3. Tentative Parcel Map 25696: 3440 Via Campesina, Mr. And Mrs. Steve
Wertheimer
Associate Planner Mihranian presented the staff report He explained the
components of the proposed project as it relates to the findings He noted that staff
determined that all of the findings could be made, which included minimum lot size,
that each lot have a contiguous lot area of at least 6,600 square feet to ensure that
the newly created lots are buildable lots, and the minimum required lot depth and
width With regards to the utilities and the access to the property, staff believed that
since the subject lot was located in a developed portion of the city that all utilities are
accessible to the property. Furthermore staff has required that the two lots, which
are now on a septic system, connect to the existing sewer line which runs under Via
Campesina Via Campesina is in the City of Palos Verdes Estates and permits and
approvals must be acquired from that city Staff circulated the proposed parcel map
to various agencies including Southern California Edison, California Water Service,
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November 28, 2000
Page 6
and Los Angeles County Fire Department Their comments and suggestions were
included in the staff report. Therefore, staff recommended approval of the Tentative
Parcel Map as conditioned
Chairman Lyon opened the public hearing
Roger Mueller 630 N. Gravier Street, Orange stated that he was the civil engineer
representing the applicants. He stated that he had carefully reviewed all of the
conditions of approval and had no objections
Commissioner Vannorsdall asked what the purpose of splitting the lot was
Mr Meurer responded that the purpose was to make the second lot available to sell
and develop
Chairman Lyon closed the public hearing
Commissioner Cartwright asked if there were any outstanding issues, and if so would
they be covered prior to issuance of a building permit.
Associate Planner Mihranian answered that most of the conditions would have to be
adhered to prior to the final recordation of the map.
Commissioner Cartwright asked about drainage issues
Associate Planner Mihranian stated that drainage issues would be addressed at the
time the lot is developed.
Commissioner Paulson moved to adopt P.C. Resolution No. 2000-42, approving
Tentative Parcel Map No. 25896 subject to conditions, as presented to staff,
seconded by Commissioner Vannorsdall. Approved, (5-0).
RECESS AND RECONVENE
At 8*40 p.m. the Planning Commission took a short recess until 8:50 p.m. at which
time they reconvened.
4. General Plan Housing Element
Senior Planner Pfost presented the staff report He stated that the item before the
Planning Commission was an amendment to the General Plan Housing Element
The purpose of the hearing was to allow the public and Planning Commission to
provide any comments on the document. Staff will then present this element with any
additional comments to the City Council. After the City Council reviews the
document, it will then be submitted to the State Once the state has completed their
review, the housing element will return to the Planning Commission and City Council
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November 28, 2000
Page 7
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for formal adoption He explained that the housing element was divided into three
main sections an introductory section describing applicable housing law and
requirements, the main section which discusses the city housing strategy, goals,
policies, and objectives, and the third section which is an appendix that provides
background information that supporting the programs categories in the second
section He concluded by recommending that the Planning Commission open the
public hearing, receive any comments from the public, and forward these comments
as well as Planning Commission comments to the City Council
Commissioner Cartwright asked if there were any significant changes to the goals,
policies, and objectives from the current document.
Senior Planner Pfost stated that there were changes, however he did not consider
them significant. He explained that there are changes in the number and types of
programs that the City undertakes
Chairman Lyon stated that on page 1-3 there was language that the Planning
Commission conducted a community workshop on the housing element. He
questioned when that took place
Senior Planner Pfost stated that this meeting was the community workshop and that
notices had been circulated regarding the meeting
Chairman Lyon noted that on page 2-7 there was a reference to the City's popular
Housing Improvement Program He asked what that was
Senior Planner Pfost explained the City's Housing Improvement Program is managed
through the Public Works Department. He noted that in three years the City has
assisted 17 residents that are in the low to moderate -income range with the
rehabilitation of their homes
Chairman Lyon also noted on page 2-7 there was a discussion on senior affordable
housing He understood that the project was an RDA action, and asked if there were
any alternative locations considered He wondered if the City was responding to a
request from a developer or did the City take a broader view of its stewardship of
RDA funds by looking at alternate locations where a senior housing project might be
located
Senior Planner Pfost answered that there were no other locations considered at this
time and this was mainly responding to a request from a developer
Commissioner Paulson asked about the reference to affordable housing at Ocean
Trails and if it was permanent housing
Senior Planner Pfost explained that through the project entitlements Ocean Trails
was required to provide four on-site and four off-site units The conditions for the
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November 28, 2000
Page 8
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project specify a certain priority in who gets to occupy the units. It is up to Ocean
Trails to manage the program
Chairman Lyon opened the public hearing, however there being no speakers, the
public hearing was closed
Chairman Lyon suggested that the body of the report contain the date that the
Planning Commission held the public hearing. He directed staff to forward the draft
report to the City Council, without objection.
COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE
Lois Larue 3136 Barkentine Road stated that she was told that fences in the City
could not be higher than 6 feet She stated that Mr York had built rusty chain link
fences over 6 feet in height on his property and asked that Mr. York be made aware
of this
NEW BUSINESS
5. Guidelines and Procedures for preservation of views where structures
are involved (Height Variation Permits)
Chairman Lyon stated that he had requested this item be added to the agenda
because on more than one occasion in the past a few of the Commissioners had
exhibited different understandings of the guidelines and procedures for the
preservation of views. He thought it best to discuss the item in this forum rather than
in front of an applicant who had applied for a height variation application. He felt it
was a subject that needed to be addressed and resolved so that all of the
Commissioners had a common understanding of what the guidelines meant He was
disappointed that Commissioner Long was not at the meeting, as he had brought up
some very good points on the interpretation of the height variation guidelines.
Chairman Lyon stated that the section of the guidelines that he believes warrants
attention is the mandatory findings for a height variation He felt there was an
apparent conflict between findings no. 4 and 6. He read finding no. 4 aloud and
distributed to the Commission what the code says and what he felt were two
alternatives to clarify the intent. In Alternative 1 he added language to "avoid
unreasonable" impairment of a neighbor's view "even when the view is not protected
by this section of the code." He added a section, 4(e), that would clarify that an
applicant shall have considered reasonable design alternatives to diminish the impact
on other property owner's views. He felt that alternative 1 was his interpretation of
what a prudent person would conclude upon reading the words in the development
code He pointed out that this was not to say that he agreed with alternative 1, but
was suggesting it for discussion purposes He then discussed alternative 2, which
was the same as alternative 1, with the deletion of the language in section 4 (a). He
felt that alternative 2 was more preferable He stated that he felt that finding no 6
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November 28, 2000
Page 9
was more important and relevant than finding no. 4. He noted that he did not
propose any changes to finding no. 6.
Commissioner Cartwright did not feel the findings were the same He felt that finding
no 4 was in place to make sure the applicant had made an attempt to minimize view
impairment and no. 6 said that even if an attempt had been made, if there is
significant view impairment, the finding could not be made. He noted that 2
commissioners were not present at this meeting and did not think changes should be
approved without their input.
Chairman Lyon stated that his intent was not to conclude the discussion this evening,
but to continue the item to the next meeting to allow the full Commission to comment.
He felt that the discussion should begin at this meeting, however.
Commissioner Mueller agreed with the intent of section 4(e) and agreed that finding 4
intended to supercede finding 6.
Commissioner Paulson referred to page 3, Section B (2) of the guidelines. He stated
that when he read that, he did not see anything that said the viewing area had to be
on the first floor.
Director/Secretary Rojas clarified that the language that does not allow views to be
protected from the second story is in a different finding.
Commissioner Paulson then quoted page 3, Section 4 regarding viewing areas,
which he interpreted to mean he could have a viewing area on the second floor of the
house.
Director/Secretary Rojas clarified that if a house had a second floor that could be built
without a height variation, then the viewing area could be on the second floor.
The Commission discussed different scenarios where a height variation may or may
not be required and if the viewing area was on the second floor.
Chairman Lyon asked the commission for their reaction to alternate 1 versus
alternate 2 in terms of their interpretation of condition no. 4.
Commissioner Cartwright stated that if one used the interpretation that he has,
except for downsloping types of houses where a second story could be built without a
height variation, none of the other second story homes built under the County are
entitled to a view from the second floor
Chairman Lyon stated that the view is from anywhere as the definition of view does
not say anything about protected view. The Commission discussed viewing areas.
Planning Commission Minutes
November 28, 2000
Page 10
The Commission agreed to leave this discussion on the table as something to be
considered at the next meeting
Chairman Lyon then distributed a copy of page 3 of the Height Variation Guidelines
with one proposed change He felt that the language in Section B.3. was in clear
conflict with the definition in B of viewing area at the top of the page. He suggested
deleting the last sentence in B 3.
Commissioner Cartwright discussed continuous, uninterrupted views and felt that
was what the sentence was trying to clarify.
Chairman Lyon agreed, but felt there was a better way of stating it in the definition.
Director/Secretary Rojas stated trying to define view and viewing area and how they
relate to multiple rooms was a very complicated issue He explained that the last
time this issue was addressed, the View Restoration Commission had one
interpretation and the Planning Commission had their own interpretation and that
they both went to the City Council at the same time. He explained that the language,
as written, was a compromise that was agreed upon by the City Council. He added
that staff has found it rare that the same exact view is found from multiple rooms.
The Commission had a lengthy discussion on viewing rooms and Chairman Lyon felt
that everyone was thinking the same thought, but the words could easily be improved
to convey the thought.
Commissioner Vannorsdall felt that the job of the Planning Commission was to
interpret the code in relation to the given project and have the outcome make sense.
He didn't think a Planning Commission would be necessary if all one had to do was
follow the code and plug it in He felt the Planning Commission was the group that
could interpret the code for each individual situation.
Commissioner Cartwright agreed with Commissioner Vannorsdall but also agreed
with the Chairman that the Planning Commission had to find some type of common
ground on which to make these decisions for consistency sake
Chairman Lyon suggested continuing the discussion to the meeting of December 12,
2000
Director/Secretary Rojas stated that if the Commission eventually does agree to
make revisions to the Guidelines, staff will work with the City Attorney to make sure
the amendments are consistent with Prop M, after which the revisions would be
forwarded to the City Council with a recommendation of approval.
Chairman Lyon stated that it was his main objective that the Planning Commission
operate with a common understanding regarding these issues
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November 28, 2000
Page 11
Chairman Lyon directed staff to include this discussion on the next agenda and
incorporate the proposals discussed this evening. He also added that he would like
staff to try to define a view.
Director/Secretary Rojas cautioned that a definition of a view already exists in the
Code and noted that there could be problems if the Planning Commission tried to
define a view differently than what is defined in the Development Code. He
suggested the Commission could clarify in the Guidelines what the existing definition
means, provided it remains consistent with Prop M.
Chairman Lyon stated that, given the definition in the code, the Planning Commission
may want to add some explanatory language in the Guidelines to clarify what a view
IS.
Director/Secretary Rojas stated that could be done
ADJOURNMENT
There being no objections, Chairman Lyon adjourned the meeting at 9 42 p m
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November 28, 2000
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