PC MINS 20000208CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES
PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
FEBRUARY 8, 2000
CALL TO ORDER
Approved
2/2 /00
The meeting was called to order at 7:00 by Chairman Cartwright at the Hesse Park
Community Room 29301 Hawthorne Boulevard.
FLAG SALUTE
Commissioner Clark led the assembly in the Pledge of Allegiance
ROLL CALL
Present: Commissioners Alberio, Clark, Paris, Slayden, Vannorsdall, Vice
Chairman Lyon and Chairman Cartwright.
Absent: None
Also present were Director/Secretary Rojas, Associate Planner Louie, Associate
Planner Mihranian, and Recording Secretary Peterson
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
Commissioner Alberio moved to approve the agenda as presented, seconded by
Commissioner Vannorsdall. There being no objection, it was so ordered by the
Chairman.
COMMUNICATIONS
Director/Secretary Rojas reported that the City Council had discussed the City web site
and ways to get more information on the web site as well as ways to inform the public of
the information available on the site He stated that the Planning Commission agendas
and follow-up agendas were now both available on the web site
Director/Secretary Rojas distributed copies of the adopted roof deck/neighborhood
compatibility ordinance and the ordinance pertaining to non-profit equestrian facilities.
Commissioner Albeno reported on his attendance at the Mayor's Breakfast
CONSENT CALENDAR
1. Minutes of January 25, 2000
Commissioner Paris noted a typo on page 2 of the minutes and asked for clarification of
the last paragraph on page 15
Chairman Cartwright pointed out typos on page 12 and page 13
Commissioner Slayden moved to approve the minutes as amended, seconded by
Commissioner Alberio. The minutes were approved, (6-0-1) with Commissioner
Clark abstaining since he was absent from that meeting.
2. Conditional Use Permit No. 182 — Revision `B' and Sign Permit No. 720 —
Revision `A' and Environmental Assessment No. 716 — Resolutions.William
Myers (applicant), 28103 Hawthorne Boulevard.
Director/Secretary Rojas informed the Commission that there were two people
requested to speak on this item.
Associate Planner Louie presented the staff report. She stated that at the last meeting
the Planning Commission had asked for clarification on the difference between water
reclamation and water recycling. Staff had researched the question and found that
water reclamation and water recycling were interchangeable terms Further, according
to the Public Health Department, water reclamation or recycling means that the
wastewater undergoes a treatment suitable for uses other than potable water. Ms.
Louie stated that at the last meeting the Commission had asked if the water reclamation
was enforced by Federal or State agencies She explained that Federal or State
agencies provide a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) to water purveyors stating
that they conform to water conservation to the best of their ability. However, the City is
not the water purveyor, it is not involved. Furthermore, Section 13 the MOU document
indicates that the MOU is only applicable to the conveyor type of car wash. Since the
proposed project is a hand car wash, the MOU is not applicable to this specific project.
Ms Louie also stated that the City Attorney determined that it appears the City is not a
signatory of the MOU. She stated that staff had modified Condition No. 28 to address
the issue of noise, however it was brought to the attention of staff that the condition
stated the dB measurement should be taken at the applicant's property line rather than
from the adjacent residences. She explained that it was the Planning Commission's
discretion if they wished to modify the condition.
Commissioner Vannorsdall stated that he had brought the location of the dB reading to
staff's attention. He reminded the Commission he had submitted a memo in February,
1998 that discussed the noise levels and the dBa scale. He explained that this scale
was used because it closely matches that of the human ear. The Commission should
be protecting the public since the public has to listen to the noise and felt that the noise
should be measured in response to what that person may hear He felt there were too
many variables involved to measure the sound from the applicant's property line He
did not think this would accurately reflect what could be heard at the neighboring
properties.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 8, 2000
Page 2
Chairman Cartwright questioned staff regarding the process of whether the Planning
Commission can open the public hearing since this item is on the consent calendar.
Director/Secretary Rojas explained that the public hearing for this item was closed at
the last meeting and a decision was made regarding the project The item is on the
consent calendar because staff has brought back the conditions that they felt reflect the
Commission's decision. The Commission should review the language to verify that it
does reflect their decision The public can comment on the conditions of approval and
provide suggestions that they feel will help the Commission make sure the conditions
correctly reflects the decision. However, the public hearing cannot be re -opened and
decisions that were made cannot be changed without a new public notice Comments
from the audience must be restricted to the language of the Resolution and the
conditions of approval.
William Glantz, 28070 Santona Drive, stated he did not understand the procedural
aspects of the Planning Commission and asked under what circumstances it was
appropriate to open this item for public discussion
Chairman Cartwright explained that at the last meeting this item was approved.
However, the Planning Commission placed three additional conditions on the proposal
in order to address the concerns of the neighbors. Staff was asked to incorporate those
conditions into the Resolution and bring it back to the Commission for adoption The
Resolution is now before the Commission with the additional language dealing with the
noise issue, the water issue, and the visual concerns The Commission was now to
review the language of the new conditions to verify consistency with their intent The
audience would be allowed to comment on the language of the Resolution, but the
public hearing could not be opened to discuss the project.
Vice Chairman Lyon commended the staff on the Resolution as he felt it followed
exactly what the Commission decided at the last meeting and he was satisfied that all of
the conditions were properly represented in the Resolution.
Commissioner Clark recused himself from this item since he was not present at the last
meeting when the item was discussed.
Ben Peterson, 28067 Santona Drive stated he was very concerned about the noise from
the Mobil Station and reminded the Commission that from his property he could hear
the sounds of people talking at the station He explained that those who would utilize
this car wash would drive behind the building, all the doors would then be opened
during the vacuum process and the radios may be turned on. after this process, the
doors would then all be slammed shut. He did not feel the Commission adequately
addressed the noise issue and felt the Commission should continue this hearing to
reconsider the issues involved and adequately address the issues.
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February 8, 2000
Page 3
William Glantz, 28070 Santona Drive stated his main concern was that he felt the same
mistake was being made that was made the first time around That mistake, he felt,
was that the entire project had not been studied before granting approval The approval
now has been granted, the equipment will be installed, the noise and traffic patterns will
be studied, and the visual affects will be reviewed. However, because of these issues
he urged the Commission to do a complete and thorough study before approving the
project He asked about an Ordinance that he heard had recently been passed by the
County requiring car washes reclaim 100 percent of the water that are associated with
the car wash Finally, he did not feel it was necessary to measure the sound levels from
different properties and measuring at the Mobil Station property line would be sufficient.
He did feel very strongly that 65 dB was a very high level to use
Chairman Cartwright asked staff if they were aware of any new standards that Los
Angeles County had adopted regarding car washes and if they applied to this situation
Director/Secretary Rojas stated that the California Regional Water Quality Control
Board was contemplating new rules for Cities to follow which were very strict. However,
these rules were directed primarily at storm water. Staff had checked with the City
consultant to see if there were any other regulations that would apply, and based on the
consultant's response there were no new regulations in terms of recycling or water
reclamation.
Bill Myers 28103 Hawthorne Blvd. discussed the procedure currently being used to
insulate the noise that comes from the equipment enclosure at the Mobil Station, which
includes a 10 -foot high sound wall and insulation.
Vice Chairman Lyon stated that in reading the Resolution more carefully regarding the
noise issues, he felt the wording could be a little more precise. He suggested two
changes to Condition No. 26 that states that the applicant shall work with the abutting
neighbors to mitigate any visual impacts associate with the car wash The first change
would be to delete the word "abutting" and replace it with "nearby" He did not feel that
noise and light were restricted to those neighbors that have contiguous properties
Secondly, add the word "noise" after visual to read mitigate any visual or noise impacts
associated with the car wash He then suggested adding Item No. 29 to further address
noise to read "The applicant shall work with any neighbors who experience excessive
noise from the car wash operation to mitigate noise levels exceeding 65 dbs on their
property " This would put a restriction not only on the applicant's property line, but it
would also protect the neighbors if the noise level exceeded 65 dbs on their property
line.
Commissioner Paris liked what Vice Chairman Lyon suggested, with the exception of
the word "nearby". He felt the word was too vague and difficult to define
Vice Chairman Lyon responded that because you could not define how far away sound
travels before it is not a problem, nearby was a better choice of words. Also, the impact
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February 8, 2000
Page 4
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would have to be greater than 65 dbs, whether it occurs adjacent to the applicant's
property or a quarter of a mile away
Commissioner Vannorsdall very much supported Vice Chairman Lyon, but questioned
whether the measurement should be taken at the applicant's property line
Vice Chairman Lyon responded that if you do not take measurements at the applicant's
property line he did not know how you could measure sound without going to every
property in the neighborhood He felt it was unworkable unless you defined the
measurement at a certain location
Director/Secretary Rojas clarified that staff would, at some time during the first six
months of operation, take sound measurements from the applicant's property line In
addition, a condition could be added stating that if staff receives complaints regarding
noise impacts from surrounding residences, the noise consultant shall also take
readings from those residences
Chairman Cartwright expressed his concern over the word "nearby" He did not know
how that would be practically implemented and envisioned 150 people saying they think
the noise at their property exceeded 150 dB
Vice Chairman Lyon had a problem with the word "abutting" since in this case it meant
only two properties He wanted to be sensitive to any resident who was experiencing a
specific problem
A discussion followed as to whether the noise readings should be made on the
recipient's property line or the applicant's property line Vice Chairman Lyon suggested
using the term "affected" rather than abutting or nearby The Commission agreed
Commissioner Alberio discussed a letter from City Manager Paul Bussey to Mr Myers
which specifically stated that the City Council had decided that no car washer of any
type shall be permitted at the Mobil Station site
Director/Secretary Rojas clarified that after the City Council approved the convenience
store Mr Myers submitted a letter to the City asking for clarification regarding the car
wash At that time Mr Myers felt that the prohibition of car washes on his site applied to
mechanical car washes and that he could have a hand car wash without the need for a
Conditional Use Permit. Then City Manager Paul Bussey responded that in reviewing
the Conditional Use Permit Resolution and the minutes of the City Council meeting, the
City Council did not approve a mechanical or hand car wash at that time and to get
either one approved would require a Conditional Use Permit Revision and be subject to
a Planning Commission hearing
Vice Chairman Lyon moved to change the wording in Condition No. 26 to read
"affected" rather than "abutting" and after the word "visual" add "or noise" so
the condition will read "The applicant shall work with affected neighbors to
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February 8, 2000
Page 5
mitigate the visual or noise impacts associated with the car wash detailing use."
The motion was seconded by Commissioner Vannorsdall. Approved, (5-1) with
Commissioner Alberio dissenting.
Vice Chairman Lyon moved to remove the phrase "as measured from the
applicant's property line" every place it occurs in Condition No. 27 and replace it
with "any affected residents." A phrase should be added to the condition that
specifies that these complaints should occur within 60 days from the start of
operation of the car wash. The motion was seconded by Commissioner Slayden.
Approved, (5-1) with Commissioner Alberio dissenting.
Commissioner Slayden moved to adopt P.C. Resolution No. 2000-03 adopting the
Mitigated Declaration, seconded by Commissioner Vannorsdall. Approved, (5-1)
with Commissioner Alberio.
Commissioner Slayden moved to adopt P.C. Resolution No. 2000-04 thereby
approving Conditional Use Permit No. 182 — Revision 'B' and Sign Permit No. 720 -
Revision "A' as amended, seconded by Commissioner Vannorsdall. Approved,
(5-1) with Commissioner Alberio dissenting.
RECESS AND RECONVENE
At 8:30 p.m. the Commission took a brief recess until 8:40 p.m. at which time they
reconvened
COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE
Lois Larue 3136 Barkentine Road discussed the Filiorum property and Mr. York's
access to the property.
PUBLIC HEARINGS
3. Height Variation No. 885, Variance No. 451 and Grading Permit No. 2108:
5888 Mossbank Drive, Haddi Kurniawan.
Associate Planner Mihranian presented the staff report. He explained that this property
was at one time part of a piece of property on Clint Place, which had been subdivided.
The current owner was proposing a 4,292 square foot residence, garage, and attached
accessory structure with 1,675 cubic yards of grading. The Variance was requested to
allow for a reduction in the required 15 -foot rear yard setback to 5 -feet 8 -inches. He
noted that in order to grant a Variance there must be some sort of physical hardship to
the property. Staff believed that the property, in itself, does warrant a variance in that
the lot has a restricted buildable area of only 5,000 square feet To get a house onto
that pad there must be some sort of encroachment into the rear yard setback because
the actual buildable area approved by the Planning Commission encroached into the
setback area. In regards to the Variance and the Height Variation, staff did not feel
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February 8, 2000
Page 6
there were any visual constraints to the surrounding properties as there was adequate
differences in elevations from the building pad and adjacent properties. In terms of
neighborhood compatibility, the proposed residence was not significantly larger than the
existing residences The driveway was proposed to cut across the restricted use area
of the lot however staff was concerned that the area was restricted because of the
extreme slopes. Staff suggested a driveway that cut straight across the property with a
series of retaining walls and backfilling the area. Staff felt this was a better option than
the previously proposed caissons, which could not be as easily screened. In summary,
Mr. Mihranian stated that staff was recommending approval of the project, with
conditions.
Commissioner Vannorsdall felt the driveway was still a little steep and wondered if
lowering the level of the garage would help
Associate Planner Mihranian stated that they had looked at lowering the garage to
reduce the steepness of the driveway, however unless the entire pad area were
lowered, a split level structure would result with an over height structure of 39 feet. The
applicant was concerned there would then be a significant number of stairs from the
garage to the actual living area.
Chairman Cartwright stated that the report indicates staff found no infringements of
privacy nor had any of the neighbors complained about privacy, yet staff had
recommended putting in a condition that a bathroom window be translucent. Mr.
Cartwright asked staff their reasoning for that condition.
Associate Planner Mihranian responded that it was added just to be extra cautious,
especially since it was a bathroom window.
Commissioner Alberio moved to open the public hearing seconded by
Commissioner Slayden. There being no objection the public hearing was opened.
Ken Burrell 32614 Coastsite Drive stated that he was representing the owner of the
property. He did not have much to add to the staff report other than the architect had
clarified that the slope of the driveway was actually 14 percent . He stated he was at
the meeting to answer any questions of the Commission
Commissioner Slayden asked Mr. Burrell if the lot to the north of the applicant's was a
buildable lot.
Mr Burrell answered that the property to the north was not buildable, as it was over a
35 percent slope. However the property to the east is a buildable lot.
Al Mashouf 5901 Clint Place stated that he had subdivided his property to create the lot
on Mossbank Drive. He felt staff had been very thorough in their report and was very
pleased with this plan. The proposed residence has very little impact on his residence
or his neighbors He urged the Planning Commission to approve the project
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February 8, 2000
Page 7
Chairman Cartwright asked Mr. Mashouf where his property was in relationship to the
applicant's.
Mr. Mashouf responded that his residence was exactly next door and approximately 5
feet higher than the proposed residence.
Robert Gibson, 26727 Basswood Avenue stated that very few people on Mossbank
Drive or Clint Place will see this house. However the people across the canyon will see
the whole fagade as a wall. He asked if the 6 -foot high retaining wall in the front yard
was allowed under the Development Code He also wondered if the Development Code
addressed the issue of tiers in the front yard to a height of 12 feet. He asked if there
were any other residences in the City that used this type of design for retaining walls
and if the project were approved would it set precedence for future development He
understood that landscaping would be used to help mitigate the appearance of the walls
and asked what the frequency of inspections would be that the City would perform to
ensure compliance, and how would the inspections be carried out in the years to come.
He stated that in order to obtain a true perspective of the intrusiveness of the driveway
retaining walls he recommended that a framework with plywood facing be constructed
on the site to actual dimensions. He also felt that with the proposed grading the existing
silhouette did not truly represent the bulk of the protect. In regards to weed abatement,
he explained that the County uses a caterpillar tractor and disc plow and comes up off
of lower Mossbank Drive to grade the southerly portion of the Malaga Canyon. They
then disassemble the equipment and take it to upper Mossbank Drive and enter the
property either to the north or east of the applicant's property. He wondered how the
tractor and plow were going to gain entrance to the upper portion once the house was
built and asked the Commission to take that under consideration
Associate Planner Mihranian explained that the area being discussed for weed
abatement was private property In order to do the weed abatement the County must
cross over an old road easement, which is now private property, and onto the property
in question. Regarding Mr. Gibson's questions on the retaining walls the code does
have criteria under the grading section that establishes parameters as to how high
retaining walls can be depending on where on the property they are located As the
staff report indicated, staff analyzed the proposed retaining wall in relation to the criteria
established in the Development Code to see if the wall is excessive or if there are visual
impacts then how those impacts would be addressed Staff felt that there would be
some visual impact from the retaining wall, however they believed that landscaping
would help camaflage it There was the option of a suspended driveway supported by
cantilevers which staff did not feel was capable with the neighborhood, or the option of a
series of retaining walls separated by landscaping that buffers, screens, and softens the
wall. To be sure that the landscaping is implemented, conditions have been written to
require the landscaping be planted at a mature height prior to the issuance of the
certificate of occupancy. Any follow-up would be through code enforcement.
Planning Commission Minutes
February 8, 2000
Page 8
Director/Secretary Rojas added that there are many properties in the City that have
tiered retaining walls and this would in no way set precedent.
Commissioner Alberio asked if the geology and soils reports for the property had been
submitted and approved by the City.
Associate Planner Mihranian answered that there was conceptual approval by the City
Geologist for all of the alternatives proposed
Commissioner Slayden moved to close the public hearing, seconded by
Commissioner Clark. There being no objection, the public hearing was closed.
Commissioner Clark felt that staff had done an exhaustive study of the project and the
Commission had heard from an adjacent neighbor who felt very strongly the protect
would be a benefit to the neighborhood The neighbor across the canyon had
objections, however the property was a developable piece of property and he felt the
project was well thought out
Chairman Cartwright complimented the owner and architect on being responsive and
sensitive to the issues of the neighbors. He felt the landscaping would help soften the
view of the retaining walls, and if it did not it should be brought to the City's attention
through the Code Enforcement Division
Commissioner Slayden moved to adopt P.C. Resolution No. 2000-05 thereby
approving Variance No. 451, Height Variation No. 885, and Grading Permit No.
2108 as presented, seconded by Commissioner Alberio. Approved, (7-0).
4. Conditional Use Permit No. 209 and Environmental Assessment No. 718:
27733 Hawthorne Blvd., Richard Pimentel
Director/Secretary Rojas explained that the application had been withdrawn by the
applicant and staff was asking the Commission receive and file the report
acknowledging the withdrawal.
Commissioner Slayden moved to receive and file the report, seconded by
Commissioner Clark. The motion was approved, (7-0).
ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
5. Pre -Agenda for the Planning Commission meeting of February 22, 2000.
Vice Chairman Lyon and Commissioner Vannorsdall stated they would not be at the
February 22, 2000 meeting
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February 8, 2000
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ADJOURNMENT
Commissioner Slayden moved to adjourn, seconded by Commissioner Alberio.
The meeting was adjourned at 10:00 p.m. to the next regular meeting on February
21, 2000.
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February 8, 2000
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