PC MINS 199401252/8/94APPROVED
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CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES
PLANNING COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
JANUARY 25, 1994
The meeting was called to order at 7:32 PM, by Chairman Gilbert
Alberio at the Hesse Park Community Building, 29301 Hawthorne
Boulevard. The Pledge of Allegiance followed, led by Miss Laura
Ann Ferraro.
PRESENT: Commissioners Vannorsdall, Wang, Whiteneck, Ferraro,
Hayes, Vice Chairman Mowlds and Chairman Alberio
ABSENT: None
Also present were Director of Planning, Building and Code
Enforcement Bernard, Planning Administrator Petru, Senior Planner
Rojas, Associate Planner Silverman, and Assistant Planner
Klopfenstein.
SWEARING IN OF NEW PLANNING COMMISSION
City Clerk Jo Purcell swore in the new Planning Commissioners and
they signed their Certificates of oath.
SELECTION OF VICE CHAIRPERSON
Commissioner Mowlds was nominated and unanimously selected as Vice -
Chairperson.
PLANNING COMMISSION ORIENTATION
Director Bernard introduced the following Staff members who were
present: Code Enforcement Officers George Rodericks and Leea K.
Kimball, Senior Planner Joel Rojas, Associate Planner Terry
Silverman, Assistant Planner Kim Klopfenstein, Planning
Administrator Carolynn Petru, and Jackie Drasco, Administrative
Assistant and Planning Commission Secretary. He mentioned that
Associate Planner Donna Jerex was at home with a broken foot and
Assistant Planner Fabio de Freitas had a class tonight.
ORIENTATION
The following items were included in packets presented prior to the
meeting. Returning Commissioners received only the first four
items.
1. Planning Department organizational Chart
2. CEQA (California Environmental Quality Act) Flow Chart
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 1
3. Planning Permit Fee Schedule
4. City Council Policy Memo #21 regarding Commission and
Committee Members' Use of the City Attorney
5. Board of Realtors Map of the Palos Verdes Peninsula
6. Planning Commission Rules and Procedures, Resolution No. 92-37
7. Ralph M. Brown Act
8. Guidelines and Procedures for Preservation of Views Where
Structures Are Involved (Height Variations)
9. Development Code and Zoning Map
10. 1990 Housing Element and 1993 Revision
11. General Plan and Land Use Map
12. Coastal Specific Plan and Land Use Map
13. Flyer outlining new extended City Hall hours
Director Bernard explained that normally the City Attorney would be
here but was unable to attend due to scheduling difficulties. A
separate meeting with the City Attorney will be set up soon.
Director Bernard discussed the highlights of the Planning
Commission Rules and Procedures:
1. Quorum requirements
2. Types of meetings
a. Regular Meetings
i. During this discussion, the Commission made the
decision to return to 7:00 PM starting time as
noted in the Procedures.
b. Special Meetings
C. Adjourned meetings
d. Study Sessions
e. Open and Closed Sessions
f. Agendas
9. Staff Reports
3. Minutes (presentation by Planning Administrator Petru)
a. In response to a request for direction regarding the form
and content of the Minutes, the Commission replied that
no change was necessary at this time.
4. order of Presentation
a. Staff is seeking direction regarding the question of
rebuttal. The Commission replied that only the proponent
should be allowed to rebut.
5. Rules of Evidence
6. Evidence Received Outside a Hearing
7. Use of the City Attorney by individual Commissioners
8. Motions for Reconsideration
9. Decision Making
a. Tie Votes, Abstentions, Absences, Appeals
10. The City Clerk will be providing a Commissioners Handbook in
approximately one month.
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 2
Director Bernard stated that if there are any questions regarding
the Rules and Procedures, the Commissioners may bring up these at
the next meeting.
Planning Administrator Petru provided an overview of the Brown Act.
If there are any questions, she suggested that the Commissioners
refer to the guide to the Act that was distributed by the
Commissioners or call the Staff.
Director Bernard reminded the Commissioners that they are not to
make prejudicial statements and stressed the importance to follow
this in order to avoid litigation against the City and themselves.
In addition, they should not indicate their opinion on a particular
item until the public hearing is closed.
Director Bernard outlined the circumstances in which a commissioner
would have to excuse himself or herself from voting on an item.
Planning Administrator Petru explained Staff's role in assisting
the Planning Commission and discussed reference materials that are
available to Commissioners at City Hall.
Planning Administrator Petru and Director Bernard suggested that
the Planning Commission call Staff before the meeting regarding
general questions or items on the Agenda, particularly to give
Staff an opportunity to answer questions or provide information
prior to or at a hearing to avoid continuances.
Director Bernard summar i z ed that the City Staff's job is to provide
professional support to the Planning Commission and the City
Council. He commented that the Development Code and General Plan
must be followed, but interpretation sometimes can be different and
the Staff needs input from the Commissioners.
Director Bernard suggested that dates be selected for various
training sessions available to the Commissioners:
(1) City Attorney - A meeting should be set up for all the
Commissioners with the City Attorney. It was decided that this
meeting would take placevat 6:30 PM in the Fireside Room at Hesse
Park prior to the City Council Meeting on Tuesday, February 1,
1994.
(2) Plan Reading - There was interest in a training session for
reading construction plans by Commissioners Hayes, Ferraro, and
Wang. commissioner Alberio and Commissioner Vannorsdall offered to
help. It was decided that an old case would be used for study and
the Commissioners involved will call Director Bernard to set up a
convenient time.
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 3
(3) Site Visit Training - This can be provided for an upcoming item
on the February 22, 1994 meeting agenda. Director Bernard will
contact interested Commissioners to schedule this before the
February meeting.
(4) CEOA - It was decided that training on the CEQA (California
Environmental Quality Act) process and guidelines would be helpful
and will be scheduled in the future by Director Bernard.
Director Bernard noted that business cards and name plates are
being ordered for the new Commissioners. He also mentioned that
all Commissioners had been provided disclosure forms which should
be returned to the City Clerk when completed.
Commissioner Wang volunteered to take care of the coffee fund.
Commissioner Alberio stated that some of the Commissioners have
asked for guidelines regarding calling applicants of the cases
being heard. He said that, although all Commissioners are expected
to visit the site, it is not always necessary to call the applicant
or the representative. If it is important to actually go on the
property or enter the structure, they might want to call to set up
an appointment.
There was a break between 8:35 to 8:48 PM.
COMMUNICATIONS
A. STAFF
Director Bernard reported there were three letters received after
the Commissioners agenda packets were assembled and distributed.
For Item VIIIA, there were two letters; and for Item XA, there was
one letter. These items of late correspondence had been placed
before the Commission.
B. COMMISSION
Commissioner Hayes reported that she had received one letter
regarding Item XA. Copies were made and distributed to each
Commissioner and Staff.
CONSENT CALENDAR
VIIIA. Minutes of December 6, 1993.
Angus Lorenzen, 15 Diamonte Lane, Rancho Palos Verdes. Mr. Lorenzen
stated that at the December 6, 1993 meeting, there was discussion
regarding trees and view restoration involving development of a
large property. Staff had recommended removing about ten trees,
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 4
leaving many 40' to 50' high trees. Mr. Lorenzen proposed a
compromise which would require three additional trees to be
removed, with minor topping of other trees. He explained that he
and other members of the audience thought that the Commission had
accepted the compromise because it solved a controversial problem
and, in the transcript of the December 6, 1993 minutes, six
references are made to the "Lorenzen compromise" which begin with
Chairman Katherman stating that "it appears we have reached a
resolution" immediately after Mr. Lorenzen had presented the
compromise. However, when the Resolution was written, one of the
trees Mr. Lorenzen had requested be removed was omitted and another
tree was misnumbered. Mr. Lorenzen felt it was the Commission's
intent to meet the compromise, but the Resolution was worded very
loosely, giving Staff the decision regarding specific trimming. He
realized that the Resolution can't be changed, but asked the
Commission to provide guidance to Staff regarding trimming and
foliage removal. He emphasized that this will not give them back
the view he had when he purchased the property, but it does give
balance between their view and privacy for new residents.
Commissioner Alberio clarified that only he and Commissioners
Mowlds and Hayes (the returning Commissioners who were present at
the December 6, 1993 meeting) could vote on the approval of these
minutes.
Commissioner Mowlds recalled that Mr. Lorenzen brought up a diagram
with acetate overlays, with an outline of the mountains and a red
line representing an outline of the foliage as it existed at that
time. There was a discussion about the profile and Mr. Cullen said
that trees in front of his home could be trimmed to 16' instead of
121. At the break, Mr. Lorenzen, Commissioners Clark and Alberio,
Chairman Katherman, Scott Yanofsky and Lois Larue adjourned to the
back room. This discussion was not reflected in the minutes.
Mr. Lorenzen said that discussion was in reference to a different
matter and it did not need to be in the minutes.
Commissioner Mowlds asked which tree was not memorialized.
Mr. Lorenzen said it was the large pine tree in the center of the
property next to the driveway, near the garage and the house. He
added that Associate Planner Silverman said it was numbered as tree
26, but, in fact, it was not.
Commissioner Mowlds asked if there was just the one tree in
contention.
Mr. Lorenzen reiterated that the issue was his request that the
Planning Commission provide guidance to the Staff. The one tree
was mentioned because Mr. Lorenzen felt that the Resolution did not
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 5
clearly state the intent of the Commission.
Commissioner Mowlds responded that the final decision would come
from the Director, or his designee, and Mr. Lorenzen agreed.
Commissioner Mowlds added that Mr. Lorenzen's profile was not being
followed completely because it was acknowledged that, after some
thinning, other trees would be revealed which might also need
trimming.
Mr. Lorenzen responded that he intended his profile to solve
exactly that problem, trees behind trees. He then asked that his
San Pedro Channel view be returned by trimming trees on the center
of the lot, the crown of the north slope and that his view be
returned of the curve of the bay and the City of Long Beach by
topping, not removing, some of those 40-50' high trees.
Commissioner Mowlds confirmed that Mr. Lorenzen had read the
verbatim minutes, referred him to page 21, and asked Mr. Lorenzen
if he agreed with this statement: "He (Mr. Lorenzen) has stated
that the various groups of palms which do not stick up into our
view line will be moved, and that we don't need to be concerned
with that "we (the Lorenzen's) believe that some trimming or
thinning of trees would give us a profile that is slightly lower
over this very large clump of trees where the house is located".
Commissioner Mowlds asked Mr. Lorenzen asked if he (Mr. Lorenzen)
thought trees were going to cut to the red profile?
Mr. Lorenzen said yes, that's what he had asked for.
Commissioner Alberio recalled that the profile had two lines, lower
and upper.
Mr. Lorenzen responded that the upper line indicated Staff's
proposal which was no trimming at all and the lower line indicated
his proposed trimming.
Commissioner Mowlds remembered that there were green and red lines.
Mr. Lorenzen stated that the green (actually blue) line indicated
the 16' level, which, according to the Development Code, is where
these trees should be cut, but he realized that the Commission had
not followed this strictly, due to privacy concerns.
Commissioner Mowlds confirmed that this was correct and that
discussion had already taken place.
Mr. Lorenzen agreed and said that these trees were well above that.
Commissioner Alberio remember that there were two red lines and a
green one. On the right side looking at the Los Angeles Harbor and
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 6
Long Beach the trees were going to cut to -1211, a compromise from
161. Trimming of the trees behind would be left that to the
discretion of Staff. Regarding the left side, the north side,
coming up the driveway on Via Subida, there is a view of the Los
Angeles channel and the Vincent Thomas Bridge. There was a
discussion of trees behind trees, some even on Mr. Lorenzen's
property. The decision was to use the upper red line, not the
lower red line.
Director Bernard explained that confusion may be caused by the word
"compromise". When that word was used, it did not necessarily mean
the "Lorenzen compromise", which was indicated by the lower red
line. It is Staff's recollection, as they indicated to the
Commission at the last meeting, that some trees would be trimmed
between what was the upper red line and the lower red line. Past
Chairman Katherman made this same statement in a fax received by
Staff that day and the three current Commissioners who were there
that evening, also agreed with this position.
Commissioner Hayes concurred with Director Bernard's statement.
Commissioner Mowlds stated that he thought every tree should have
been memorialized, but that did not happen. i He recalled that when
Mr. Cullen agreed the trees could be trimmed at 161, and that's
what Director Bernard said, there was some compromise between those
two lines.
Mr. Lorenzen brought the diagram up to the podium and indicated
that the trees Mr. Cullen mentioned are located to the far right
and not on the sketch, because they are not a issue for the
Lorenzen's. He said the trees are very low and if maintained at
161, they will still not show up in the profile as seen from their
house. His request contains three elements: (1) Remove three
trees, consisting of the two trees which were memorialized in the
Resolution and a large pine tree which was not memorialized in the
Resolution, but for which removal was very clearly agreed upon and
this can be found in the verbatim minutes and; (2) Minor trimming
for those trees blocking the channel view, and generally topping of
a grove of 40' to 50' high trees to restore the harbor view. He
stated that these actions would give back some of their view of
Long Beach and the Vincent Bridge and added that he is not asking
for view they had when they bought the house, which was
considerably more.
Commissioner Hayes asked if lacing was mentioned?
Mr. Lorenzen said it was not.
Commissioner Alberio remembered that thinning was mentioned also.
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 7
Director Bernard clarified that both lacing and trimming were
discussed because of concern that topping might kill many of the
trees.
Mr. Lorenzen said that he did not believe taking off 101 to 15'
from the top of 40-50f trees would kill them.
Scott Yanofsky, 1142 Manhattan Avenue, Manhattan Beach, CA.
(applicant's representative) Mr. Yanofsky stated that 90 trees had
been removed from the site to date. At the meeting at City Hall on
January 3, 1994 which included Director Bernard Planning
Administrator Petru, Associate Planner Silverman, Mr. Lorenzen and
himself, the pine tree behind the house was discussed and the
contract was shown to Mr. Lorenzen indicating that the tree was
going to be removed. Therefore, even though this tree may not have
been mentioned in the Resolution, it is a moot point. No more
trimming of trees can be done without harming the trees, but Staff
can look at the situation to see if more trees need to be removed.
In reference to the north slope, the north ridge and the other
group of trees which Mr. Lorenzen addressed, this group of trees,
in the compromise, were going to be left to the applicant's
discretion. These are the trees that they view from the master
bedroom and, once the house is framed up, it will be apparent which
trees need to be trimmed to open up views from the house. Mr.
Yanofsky noted that the Commission has empowered Staff to obtain
input from the local residents and look at the remaining trees to
take the necessary steps to increase the views for the neighbors.
He suggested that the process be allowed to continue.
Commissioner Mowlds asked Mr. Yanofsky if the one tree that Mr.
Lorenzen wants removed, is going to be removed.
Mr. Yanofsky said yes.
Betsey Kelly, 6611 Vallon Drive, Rancho Palos Verdes. Mrs. Kelly
supported the Staff's recommendation and discussed maintenance of
views.
Commissioner Mowlds asked the Staff if they believe the process, as
described, will provide what Mr. Lorenzen is asking for.
Director Bernard responded that Staff's direction from the
Commission is fairly close to that lower red line, with the
exception of a few clumps here and there. However, Staff does
appreciate Mr. Lorenzen's input and has encouraged it because Staff
wants as much direction and input as possible.
Commissioner Hayes made ia motion to accept the verbatim minutes of
December 6, 1993, which was seconded by commissioner Mowlds.
Approved (3-0).
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 8
VIIIB. Minutes of December 14, 1993.
Commissioner Hayes suggested changes in the minutes of December 14
as follows: (1) She abstained from the PacTel item, Conditional
Use Permit No. 119 because she did not participate and would like
the minutes to indicate this abstention. (2) On page 15, second
paragraph, after "....zoned Institutional, inject: "(one of eight
Automobile Service Overlay Control Districts sites regarding
General Plan #21)". The reason for adding this is because the
Planning Commission has been told this will be appealed and would
like the Institutional qualified to cover the fact that the City
Council did put in a overlay. Therefore, the Planning Commission
was dealing with a commercial piece of property. (3) Page 28 - one
word needs to be changed in the second paragraph beginning
"Commissioner Mowlds agreed with the Chairman..... change "Repair"
to "Report".
Commissioner Hayes made motion to approve the December 14 minutes
with changes and it was seconded by Commissioner Mowlds. Approved
(3-0) .
PUBLIC HEARINGS
XA. VARIANCE NO. 362; Edward and Tina Ramos, 5930
Montemalaga Drive. (KK)
Assistant Planner Klopfenstein read the Staff Report, summarized as
follows. On June 2, 1993, a Code Enforcement investigation was
initiated against the property at 5930 Montemalaga Drive for
construction of accessory structures without City permits. On June
25, 1993, the applicants submitted Variance No. 362 for after -the -
fact approval of a 352 square foot deck, with a portable spa and
gazebo located on top, to a maximum height of 15'-611, and a lower
level 130 square foot deck, to a maximum height of 8'-811. Both
decks cantilever over a slope approximately 50o in steepness. The
decks are supported by wood beams and the area underneath the decks
is still exposed when viewed from the side. Although there is some
landscaping on the slope, it does not adequately screen the exposed
area under the decks, nor provide any privacy for the rear yards of
the adjoining properties.
Staff feels that the required findings for the Variance cannot be
made for the existing decks, the spa and the gazebo. Not only were
the accessory structures developed on an extreme slope, but the
gazebo exceeds the 12' height limit for accessory structures by 31-
611. Additionally, Staff feels that the height and scale of the
accessory structures result in a loss of privacy, create an adverse
visual impact, and would not be consistent or compatible with the
existing development patterns found in the surrounding area.
Furthermore, Staff is concerned that the placement of the decks on
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 9
the slope may cause run-off which could damage the rear slope of
both the subject property and the adjacent properties. Staff
recommends that the Planning Commission deny Variance No. 362 and
require the applicants to remove all of the accessory structures on
the extreme slope within sixty (60) days of the City's decision
becoming final.
Commissioner Ferraro asked if she understood correctly that •the
Code does not allow a height of over 121 for accessory structures.
Assistant Planner Klopfenstein explained that anything detached
from the primary residence (primary structure) is limited to 121
and anything attached is limited to 161.
Planning Administrator Petru added that the Code is particularly
strict about measuring the height of accessory structures.
Measurement is taken from the grade adjacent to the lowest
foundation to the highest point. In the case of a gazebo, the
height is measured from where the piling comes out of the ground to
the ridgeline, and that accounts for the excessive height.
Commissioner Alberio opened the public hearing.
Lawrence Roman, 267 E. Carson St., Carson, CA 90745, Attorney for
Dr. & Mrs. Ramos. Mr. Roman indicated that he received the Staff
Report yesterday and that he and his clients have had little
opportunity to study it, let alone act on it. He requested that
the Commission postpone their decision for 60 days in order for the
applicant to investigate the possibility of bringing these
improvements into compliance.
Commissioner Alberio asked Staff about the City's contact with the
property owner.
Assistant Planner Klopfenstein explained that the City's Code
Enforcement Officer contacted Mr. and Mrs. Ramos on June 2, 1993,
after the structures were already built, giving them a deadline of
June 25, 1993 to remove the structures or apply for a variance.
The application for a variance was deemed complete on November 16,
1993, and a site visit was conducted a few weeks ago.
Unfortunately, Staff does not feel there is an alternative location
for the structures; they were constructed over an extreme slope
which the Development Code does not allow, and there is a pool and
concrete deck on the only level useable rear yard area.
Director Bernard commented that if these structures cannot be
brought into compliance within the Development Code, the only
option, other than removing the structure, was a variance.
Commissioner Hayes noted that they have had over six months to
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 10
prepare.
Director Bernard added that they applied for the variance in
November.
Commissioner Hayes further stated that the applicant has actually
had sixty days to research the problem.
Commissioner Alberio stated that it appeared that due process has
been followed and now the applicant has an opportunity to be heard.
Their notification was not just this past week, but from June of
1993.
Commissioner Hayes asked Mr. Roman if the contractor had a business
license in Rancho Palos Verdes?
Mr. Roman said he was not sure. He had been retained less than two
weeks and has not had an opportunity to contact the contractor. He
expressed his opinion that neither the City or the objecting
property owners would suffer any particular type of prejudice in
granting this continuance. He does not consider this a last minute
extension because, although the property owners were aware of
certain violations and that certain actions would be brought
against them, he and his clients feel that the first official
action was the issuing of the Staff Report.
Commissioner Hayes asked Staff if they consider a code violation
notification official notice.
Director Bernard confirmed that it is an official notice and there
had been a first and second notice from the Code Enforcement
Officer and the applicant had applied for a variance to comply with
Code Enforcement.
Mr. Roman commented that, nonetheless, it seems like an extreme
remedy to have the structures removed without giving the applicant
a chance to consult with the contractor.
Commissioner Alberio explained that a decision has not been made
yet.
Commissioner Whiteneck stated that he did not understand why more
time is necessary when apparently notice was given six to eight
months ago.
Commissioner Wang concurred.
Mr. Roman said that he was sure most property owners don't
understand the protocol. His clients have not dealt with this
specific subject before and they have been good members of the
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 11
community and have spent considerable time and resources improving
their property which contributes to the entire neighborhood.
Commissioner Alberio explained that's why a person hires an
architect or builder whose job it is to determine Code requirements
and obtain permits and their builder failed to do this.
Mr. Roman said that was the case.
Commissioner Alberio added that the property owner still has legal
responsibility.
Mr. Roman replied that he understood and agreed that was correct;
however, his clients had acted in good faith and any wrongdoing was
unintentional.
Commissioner Vannorsdall noted that he has just finished working
with a contractor for underpinning a house and that contractor did
obtain the permits. He added that he was astounded that Mr. Roman
had been retained for two weeks and did not know who the contractor
is. It seemed like that would be the first step.
Mr. Roman responded that only in the last couple of days had he had
an opportunity to contact this particular company and the person he
needed to talk to was not available at that time.
Commissioner Vannorsdall confirmed that Mr. Roman had been on this
case for two weeks.
Mr. Roman said yes.
Commissioner Vannorsdall asked why, in those two weeks, hadn't he
been able to reach this person.
Mr. Roman said because of the earthquake and pressing business at
the office, he had not had a chance. He added that the earthquake
had no effect on the structures in question.
Edward Ramos, 5930 Montemalaga Drive, Rancho Palos Verdes. Dr.
Ramos stated that they moved to the neighborhood in 1991. They
attended a convention where they purchased a spa and asked during
the purchase if they needed a permit. The salesman said usually a
permit was not necessary. The purchase was made from Cal Spa who
gave them one year to decide where to install the spa. The deck
was built about 1 1/2 years ago by a carpenter his wife's mother
knew. He added that the deck has been through two earthquakes and
many rainstorms and there has been no problem. He also stated that
he and his wife are the only employees of his business; they work
six days a week and don't have much time.
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 12
Tina Ramos, 5930 Montemalaga Drive, Rancho Palos Verdes. Mrs. Ramos
emphasized that they had no intention of doing anything wrong; they
only wanted to improve their home and provide a place for their
children to play. She mentioned that the drains (wood platforms
which cover the drainage swales) can be lifted to keep the area
clean. The wood platforms were constructed to make the deck safer
after one of their children was hurt when the area was slippery
during construction. She mentioned that she had a photograph to
illustrate this. She added that they spoke to the neighbor above
twice, and he said it would not bother him for the sake of his view
or any other reason. She said that she realized some of the
neighbors were opposed because of their privacy but that the way
the back yards are situated, there is not much privacy anyway. She
apologized for not discussing the project with her neighbors and
realized this should have been done. She added that other
neighbors have built second stories and other construction, and she
and her husband have always supported their projects.
Commissioner Vannorsdall stated that he believed their motives were
good. He mentioned his concern about the railings of the deck for
the safety of the children, and asked Mrs. Ramos their ages.
Mrs. Ramos said they were 10 and 6.
Edward Ramos explained that the job was not finished because it had
not been possible to add railings yet; therefore, they had not been
able to use the facility yet.
Commissioner Wang asked when construction started.
Mr. Ramos replied that the decks were built before the gazebo,
which was added in May 1993.
Commissioner Wang asked how long the decks had been built.
Mr. Ramos responded that it was about six months prior to
construction of the gazebo.
Commissioner Ferraro asked if they had inquired of the City at all
as to whether or not a permit was needed.
Mr. Ramos answered that they had not. They had discussed
installation of the spa with the company from which they bought the
spa, and were told if the spa was built into the ground, a permit
would be needed. Therefore, they opted for the portable spa.
Commissioner Vannorsdall questioned the means by which water fills
the spa. He asked if water was piped up to it.
Mr. Ramos said there is not a water supply at the spa; it is simply
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 13
filled with a faucet.
Lawrence Roman added that, in response to why the applicants
waited so long after they had the initial notice of the violation
to take further action, they were told they could get a variance
and only in the last few days have they realized that the variance
might be denied. They paid the application fee and a 100% penalty.
James Hearo, 5924 Montemalaga Drive, Rancho Palos Verdes. Mr.
Hearo lives next door to the Ramos family on the left facing the
property and stated that his view was not obstructed nor did he
feel his privacy was violated. He said the Ramos' are fine people
who have improved their property and the whole block. He confirmed
the fact that there is little privacy because of the way the
backyards are arranged. The neighbors can't help seeing each
other.
Ken Tillung, 5918 Montemalaga, Rancho Palos Verdes. Mr. Tillung
lives next door to Mr. Hearo, two doors from the applicant. He
mentioned that he too has a portable structure in his backyard
which was installed without a permit. He expressed his opinion
that Mr. and Mrs. Ramos were good neighbors and have improved their
property very much. He said he believes if their spa is allowed to
remain, it will be maintained and, if it is too high, he was sure
they will do whatever is necessary to remedy that situation. An
architect or engineer will have to determine the solution for the
other problems.
Commissioner Ferraro asked how long Mr. Tillung had had his
unpermitted structure.
Mr. Tillung replied about a year and that it was very portable and
he would remove it, if it bothered anyone. He explained that it
was a screened porch, a platform with no top on it.
Commissioner Ferraro asked if his structure included a jacuzzi and
Mr. Tillung said no.
Commissioner Alberio asked him if the Planning Commission granted
approval for the variance for the Ramos family, would he feel that
he was entitled to approval to build the same structures.
Mr. Tillung said he would rather just take down his structure,
which he understands he will have to do if he sells the property.
H. J. Bosco, 5906 Montemalaga Drive, Rancho Palos Verdes. Mr.
Bosco said that he found it almost incomprehensible that any
person, supposedly as well educated as Dr. Ramos, could build a
project, so strongly against the general plan of our city and that
he has pitted neighbor against neighbor. He wanted to go on record
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 14
as being completely in support of the findings of the Staff Report,
which he had read thoroughly, and that he felt the variance should
be denied.
commissioner Ferraro asked the location of Mr. Bosco's house and he
said he lived four houses from the subject property.
Herb Suer, 6002 Montemalaga, Rancho Palos Verdes. Looking at the
property, Mr. Suer said he is two doors to the right of the Ramos
house. He stated that he was opposed to the granting of a variance
for this construction. He felt it was completely out of character
with the surrounding hillside greenery and that it was an
unattractive eyesore. He is concerned about reduction of his
property value. He added that if there was some way to use
landscape or fencing to block this view, it would be an
improvement, but this was not possible. He stated that he thought
having the construction removed was the proper action, and that it
infringed on their privacy for the back of their house, patio and
back yard. He agreed that residents can see in other yards when
they climb the hill to weed and so on, but these decks would be a
place where people will congregate which is more of an invasion of
privacy.
He also expressed concern about drainage and the stability of the
hill during rainstorms since much of vegetation has been destroyed
or moved around. He remembered that it was mentioned earlier that
the decks had been constructed 1 1/2 years ago and that they had
survived two earthquakes. He added that he has a PhD from M.I.T.
in structural engineering, dynamics loading, and that it was his
opinion that surviving the earthquakes was meaningless because the
spa was not installed and filled with water during the earthquakes.
He said that there appears to be no engineering of the structure
whatsoever, but that he could not perform an analysis because he
did not know what kind of footings there were. However, he felt
that, just by looking at the construction, he could see there was
no lateral side bracing, and suspects an analysis would prove that
the gazebo would have gone down the hill if it had been at the
epicenter of the recent 6.6 Northridge earthquake. Mr. Suer also
wanted to comment about the petition included with the Staff
Report. He did a spot check and 800 or more who signed do not view
the property at all and live two streets away. They had no
knowledge of what was constructed. One person said she was
badgered into signing, one person was a babysitter, one person
denied her signature, and another person said he would not have
signed, had he known a variance was needed. Therefore, he did not
believe petition is valid. He said he was sorry about the cost,
and the fact everything may have to come down but the Ramos' are
intelligent, educated people, and it was hard for him to understand
that they did not know they needed a permit. Mr. Suer closed by
saying that his property would be most affected if the structure
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 15
were to fail.
Commissioner Vannorsdall asked the location of Mr. Suer's house and
he replied that looking at the property, it is on the right.
Commissioner Vannorsdall asked Mr. Suer if he had any structures on
the hill.
Mr. Suer responded that they have a deck on ground level at the top
of the hill about 801 behind the house with wooden steps leading
up. it had been built a long time ago for a viewing area but they
had not used it for quite some time.
Planning Administrator Petru clarified that the Ramos' were not
aware that a variance application did not require early neighbor
consultation as is the case with the Height Variation application.
They submitted the petition with the application and, even though
the Planner realized this wasn't a requirement, it was attached to
Staff Report. She explained that when a Staff Report is written
for variances, for after -the -fact structures, Staff analyzes the
project as if it were a proposal to build, and how it would measure
up against the mandatory findings. One of the handicaps is that
the project is not reviewed by Building & Safety. She relayed a
similar situation in which a Planning commission approved a
variance but, in the plan check process, the landowner was required
to almost completely tear down and rebuild because it didn't comply
with building requirements for the City. This could well be the
case in this situation.
Commissioner Alberio concurred.
Director Bernard explained that the reason for the permit process
is twofold, both to insure safety for the owners and also to make
sure there is conformance to Code.
John Letcher, 5936 Montemalaga Drive, Rancho Palos Verdes. Mr.
Letcher said his house, facing the Ramos, property, is to the
right. He said that 95% the signatures on the petition, which was
never presented to him, are from people who have never seen the
structure. He expressed concerned about safety, because there
appeared to be no engineering study done prior to building, and he
is concerned about the weight of the structures and the stability
of the slope. Mr. Letcher explained that the decks are to the
right of his property about six feet away, and he felt he would be
most affected if there was a problem. He also felt he would
experience a loss of privacy, because he can see the structures
from his dining room & master bedroom. He complimented the Ramos'
on their attempt to hide the structures by planting two dozen palm
trees, but he was not sure how much that would help. He also was
worried about the effect on his property value.
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JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 16
Betsey Kelly, 6611 Vallon Drive, Rancho Palos Verdes. Mrs. Kelly
stated that this country is a nation of laws and everyone must do
what is right. She asked Director Bernard if the license of the
contractor who built this would be revoked.
Commissioner Alberio responded that it had not been determined if
the builder was actually a contractor.
Mrs. Kelly replied that this man was in construction and he had
built these decks. She said that contractors she and her husband
have used have always made sure permits have been obtained, and she
could not believe Mr. and Mrs. Ramos did not know this was
necessary.
Commissioner Mowlds made a motion to close the public hearing and
it was seconded by commissioner Vannorsdall. Approved (7-0).
Commissioner Vannorsdall mentioned that he was concerned that the
construction of the platform was braced in only one direction, in
cross direction instead of down the hill. He believed that the
structures are unsafe in the extreme slope situation, and felt if
the hill gave way, the whole thing would come down to the Ramos'
house.
Commissioner Wang sympathized with the Ramos regarding the cost and
is happy that they are in the community and improving their
property. However, she said that when she visited the site, she
had to be very careful on the steep slope, and she was really
concerned about the safety factor.
Commissioner Whiteneck said the structures should not have been
built without a permit, and this is the responsibility of the
property owner. He was also concerned about safety and reliability
of the structures. I
Commissioner Ferraro asked Staff if structures had ever been
approved on a 50% slope, if a permit was requested in the
beginning, instead of after -the -fact?
Planning Administrator Petru replied that, probably less than six
had been approved in her seven-year tenure in the City, but, in all
cases, it was after -the -fact.
Commissioner Hayes expressed the opinion that the structures looked
like a second unit put up on sticks, and felt it was out of
character with the neighborhood, and unsightly. She said when she
was standing under the structure, she did not feel it was safe.
She add that the Ramos' could have a severe liability situation,
and that the structures should be taken down.
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JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 17
Commissioner' Mowlds agreed with the all commissioners, comments and
cited a City Code section which was not included by the Staff -
17.40.060, Extreme Slope: "No construction is allowed on any
extreme slope except as provided in Chapters 17.57 and 17.41 for
satellite dishes"; and, specifically 17.57.020 states: "for the
scope of what may be built, the Planning commission may only grant
extreme slope permits for the construction of decks, including a
cantilever extending a maximum of six feet into the extreme slope
area". He said this is not a cantilever, as a structural engineer
has pointed out; a cantilever covered the portion of where a
structure overhangs on the slope by six feet. He felt neither of
these decks met any of this criteria.
Commissioner Alberio stated that ignorance of the law is no excuse
especially since Dr. Ramos is a dentist and a very well educated
person. They seem like very nice people and they seem to be very
busy people also, and they delegated construction to someone who
does not appear to be a contractor, but a carpenter. He stated
that it has been said that these structures appear to be improperly
braced and he agreed with his fellow Commissioners that the
structures are unsafe.
Commissioner Mowlds made a motion and commissioner Hayes seconded
it to support staff recommendation to deny Variance 362 and removal
of the structures shall be complete within 90 days, (not 60, which
was Staffs's recommendation). Approved (7-0). Resolution will be
signed tonight, with 15 -day appeal period.
NEW BUSINESS - None
REPORTS AND COMMUNICATIONS
A. STAFF
1. Pre -Agenda for the February 8, 1994, meeting.
2. Development Code Revision - Process Format
Discussion. Senior Planner Rojas outlined several
options for revision of the Development Code and the
Commission selected the Staff's recommendation to appoint
a Subcommittee to analyze the Development Code, section
by section, and bring their findings to the entire
Commission for their input, as well as the public's, on
a continuing basis. The subcommittee will include
Chairman Alberio, Vice Chairman Mowlds, and Commissioners
Hayes, Whiteneck and Vannorsdall. The Commission also
accepted Staff's recommendation to substitute Section 16
for 17 for the first meeting on February 8, 1994.
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JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 18
B. COMMISSION - None
COMMENTS FROM AUDIENCE (regarding non -agenda items)
Mrs. Betsey Kelly commented regarding a the Villa Capri
housing project.
ADJOURNMENT
Adjourned at 11:10 PM to adjourned meeting on Tuesday,
February 1, 1994, at 6:30 P.M. in the Fireside Room at Hesse
Park.
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JANUARY 25, 1994
PAGE 19