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PC MINS 19840529MI NATES Planning Commission May 29, 1984 8:15 pm The meeting was called to order at 8:15 p.m. in the Community Room of City Hall at 30940 Hawthorne Boulevard by Chairman Harvey Brown. PRESENT: BROWN, MCNULTY, WIKE VON HAGEN, ORTOLANO Also present were Director of Environmental Services Sharon Hightower and;__ Planner Gary Pedroni. OLD BUSINESS Review of Draft Trails Dr. Brown advised that there was a response Network Plan from the City Attorney relative to changing easements and City liability. Dr. Brown also advised that there was a trails linkage priority list prepared by staff and distributed to the audience. Assistant Planner Gary Pedroni presented the staff report. He indicated that at the last Planning Commission meeting dealing with trails, staff was requested to make some revisions. Those revisions have been included in this staff report. The major request was to increase the proposed trails for equestrians and to look at the crossings. Staff focused on the proposed revisions to the draft plan. Mr. Pedroni outlined those areas listed in the staff report. Mr. Pedroni said that Attachment A of the staff report was submitted by the Equestrian group relative to proposed trails and trails that are in use today. The items in the equestrian proposal are addressed in the staff report. Mr. Pedroni said staff developed the following criteria in reviewing a possible trail plan); (a) connection to easements, (b) status of land proposed for trail usage, (c) duplication of trails, and (d) number of users of the trails. He stated that staff wanted to draft a realistic proposal and not create a wish list. He believed that staff's proposal can be implemented realistically. Using the criteria, and the users list submitted to staff, he had tried to consolidate the trails used the most. It was the consensus of the Commission to read the information received by the City Attorney relative to changing of easements, obtaining property through prescriptive easement, general liability and private roads. Discussion between staff and Commission ensued relative to questions and clarification on particular items in the staff report, Appendix A vs. staff's proposal, Narbonne right-of-way and Insert B. Mr. Pedroni explained and clarified the citizen's proposal versus staff's proposal. Mrs. Ortolano asked for discussion on those items NOT considered for the plan. It was decided those items were for another place and time and not appropriate at present. Minutes 5/29/84 Page Two Director Hightower said there needed to be some discussion relative to which parks would be appropriate for equestrian usage. If there are no trails going to a specific park, it would preclude facilities there. Discussion relative to trails in a legal easement ensued. There was a difference of opinion as to whether or not there existed "equestrian easements" in Rolling Hills. Director Hightower said that staff has not eliminated all trails because they are not on dedicated easements. It was asked how staff is cultivating citizen participation. Mr. Pedroni said he had met frequently with representatives of the Peninsula Horseman's Association and others. Dr. Brown asked if there had been an attempt from homeowners associations to be involved. Mr. Pedroni said he had not personally contacted any nor had any contacted him. Director Hightower said the Sierra Club had been advised relative to pedestrian trails but there had been no response. Audience response was as follows: 12.1a Ms. Sunshine, 6 Limetree Lane, RPV, representing the Palos Verdes Peninsula Horseman's Association, clarified her personal goal for the trails plan and aired concern over the financial aspects. She would like to see the Trails Plan as a vehicle to protect what is physically in existence and to keep it that way. She also asked what methodology there is to expand the Q district into undeveloped land. Dr. Brown stated that to develop every trail is unrealistic but understood the basic fear of the document being lost in the future. He believed that was not the case, but there are also no guarantees. Mrs. Wike asked about registration fees for horses as a City alternative for funding. Ms. Sunshine thought ---the horse- community-would—object, She =thoupht _the.-City—would be taxing some of those not using the Service; there are more horses on the, Peninsula than are used on trails. Tom Sears, 28411 Cayuse Lane, RPV, spoke regarding Chaparral Road. He said this is not part of the plan but it has been a trail leading to a dedicated trail, Georgette Canyon. He also stated that taxing horses was not part of the plan when the City was formed, and he said trails existed then. Mr. Sears suggested using the equestrian people to obtain easements. Mr. Sears also did not feel the City had any laws.to enforce horses on private property. Jean Longacre, 6 Martingale, RPV, addressed safety hazards. She said the horse community does not expect railed fences; they are simply interested in protecting trails. She suggested the maintenance and cleanup to be done by the equestrian community. She said that the sale of Lot 22 was not wise. She suggested the equestrian community working on a one to one basis to establish dedicated trails. She felt there is a core group willing to contribute. 21 Minutes 5/29/84 Page Three Bill Martin, 6121 Armaga Springs Road, addressed the citizen priority list. Relative to pages 1 and 2, he felt the only change needed was legal documentation and priority #1, pages 3-9 was the second priortiy, and pages 10 and 11 could be budgeted on the outside. Mrs. Winifred Brtis, 4101 Lorraine Road, RPV, addressed item #9 relative to the library trail. She believed there was an easement on the Library property, the trail existing was a feasible access, and requested staff to follow up on that possibility. Mrs. Barbara Epstein, 1 21 Moccasin Lane, RHE, addressed easement acquisition and represented children - )s equestrian interest. She suggested a program of easement donations but requested assistance from the City. She thought people may be able to donate easements. Shirley Kline, 24 Sorrel Lane, RHE, president of PV Peninsula Horseman's Association offered assistance to the Commission. Her organization distributes a newsletter to about 175 families on the Peninsula, and they would be willing to publish an appeal to the membership for assistance. She also suggested cleanup and maintenance by the equestrian community. Dr. Brown asked Mrs. Kline her feeling about the suggestion of user fees to defray the cost involved. Mrs. Kline believed that DOSs-ib.l-v- -the- assoc7iat onis—gtt-it-utds--�i?u-1d�YS-Regati�ee- Personally, she felt, something could be worked but Ut hope I cou e wor d out another way. The problem she foresees with licensing is enforcement. Mrs. Tina Greenberg, 29270 PV Drive East, RPV, addressed the Library trail issue. She said the trail meanders through restrictive use areas in RPV which cannot be developed. The trail does link with RH. She believed there was an easement. Mr. Pedroni stated there are no dedicated "equestrian easements" in Rolling Hills according his sources of representatives of the homeowners association. He suggested obtaining a policy statement from Rolling Hills. Shirley Schwarz, 6 Cayuse Lane, RPV, commented on the Martingale trail. She requested the City retain the Martingale lot until it is decided what is needed. She asked if it were necessary for the RPV trail to hook up to dedicated existing legal recorded easements in RH. Evie Hunter, 18 Martingale, asked about the lots being subdivided on Rockinghorse and if there is any consideration being given to a trail along the perimeter, Director Hightower said there may be a problem linking that area to RH trails. Staff is investigating. Ms. Hunter was not opposed to licensing. However, she asked about the other citizens using recreational facilities and if they would be taxed also. It was explained that many do now through user fees. Elmer Grimes, 6 Branding Iron, RHE said the trails between his residence and the Botanical Gradens is an ideal horse trail. He brought up the idea of horses with carts as alternate means of transportation for senior citizens. He proposed 5%29%84 Page Four extending the trail for 20 miles with tunnels and bridges. His desire was to preserve heritage. Tim Burrell, 4038 Exultant Drive, RPV, representing Filiorum Corporation, was concerned about the standards to preserve adjacentp pert s and with f 1 e x i b i 1 i ty+� `�'L`'v`� Andi Lytal, 3 Barkentine Road, did not respond. Betsy Raine, 71 Portuguese Road, RH, representing the Portuguese Bend Pony Club expressed interest in trails for the Pony Club. Her purpose was to alert the Commission to the value of the Pony Club. Cal Mintz, 26811 Eastvale Road, PVP, addressed the issue of safety of children and trails. He also stated the loss of property value without access to horse trails. Skip Luske, President of Rolling Hills Community Association, was available for questions. Dr. Brown asked if RPV were to develop these trails and link with existing dedicated and non dedicated easements in Rolling Hills, would or could the access be blocked. RPV is trying to create viable trails. Mr. Luske said there are no guarantees. If a trail were blocked, they would try to help in unblocking it. Mrs. Ortolano asked Mr. Luske who has control of trails in Rolling Hills. He replied because it is a private community, all access is private property and the homeowner's association is responsible. The trails are dedicated to they homeowner's association.—K-�� Mary Jat Bloomingdale, 16 Martingale, addressed the possibility of Rolling Hills arbitrarily fencing off trails. She suggested looking at the County Surveyor's map. Jean Smolley, 56 Limetree Lane, RPV, said there are no existing trails from Rolling Hills to Portuguese Bend without private roads. She felt the community could help deal with the equestrian problems. RECESS 10:45 p.m RECONVENED 10:55 p.m. The consensus of the Commission was as follows - Mr. McNulty agreed with staff's recommendation but requested adding the Library trail as potential. Mr. Von Hagen was not prepared to make a specific decision. He was concerned with the access of the Eastside to Portuguese Bend. Mrs. Wike was not prepared to make a decision. She requested more time to review the proposals; she wants to hear more about easements in Rolling Hills and linkages. 41 Minutes 5/29/84 Page Five Mrs. Ortolano agreed the Library trail should be added as a potential trail. She was in disagreement with point #2 of staff's recommendation relative to obtaining a policy statement from Rolling Hills. Dr. Brown agreed with staff's proposal, would like to see the Library trail investigated, and with a letter to Rolling Hills. Dr. Brown aired concern over the Crenshaw right-of-way access from Portuguese Bend area. He felt we had a dedicated easement already from border of Rolling Hills to Valley View and felt no need to reduplicate that effort. He also aired concern over the crossing at Crest Road. He would go along with that, pending safety of the crossing, but opposed a stop sign or light. He -thought_,- an underpass was more appropriate. Mrs. Wike, Dr. Brown and Mr. McNulty supported a letter to Rolling Hills to get their good faith and cooperation in connecting trail links. Mrs. Ortolano and Mr. Von Hagen did not share that concern and felt there are no guarantees. The consensus of the Commission was for staff to return the Plan after investigating the Library trail and after the Traffic Committee had looked at PVDE and Crest Road crossing. AJDOURNMENT A motion was made by Mr. McNulty and seconded by Dr. Brown for adjournment at 11:30 p.m.