PC MINS 19800325M I N U T E S
City of Rancho Palos Verdes
Planning Commission
Regular Adjourned Meeting
March 25, 1980
The meeting was called to order at 7:34 p.m. in the City Council Chambers,
30942 Hawthorne Boulevard, by Commissioner Hughes.
PRESENT: Brown, Hughes, McTaggart
LATE ARRIVALS: Bacharach, Hinchliffe
ABSENT: None
Also present were Associate Planners Gary Weber and Richard Thompson.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
Mr. Hinchliffe arrived at 7:35 p.m.
during discussion of the minutes.
On motion of Dr. Brown, seconded by Mr. Hughes, and carried, with Mr.
McTaggart and Mr. Hindhliffe abstaining, the minutes of the meeting of
March 11, 1980, were approved with the following amendments: page 7,
paragraph 2, last line, should read "...it was the side lights."; and
page 7, paragraph 4, line 6, should read "...at the Mesa Palos Verdes
Homeowners Association..."
TENTATIVE PARCEL MAP NO. 11896
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT NO. 52
West side of Palos Verdes Drive
West at City boundary
Applicant: Mr. & Mrs. Kildiszew
meeting on or before the second
Mr. Thompson said this request was
for a two -lot subdivision in an RS -1
(RPD) zone. He reviewed the back-
ground of the project and said the
public hearing was held by the
Commission on October 23, 1979, and
that the item had been continued to a
regular meeting in March, 1980.
Mrs. Bacharach,arrived at 7:38 p.m.
Mr. Thompson said the consensus of the Commission at the October meeting
was to wait for input from the coastal planning study and to review the
structural locations prior to decision on this project. He said
Sedway/Cooke, planning consultants, have submitted to the City their
Preliminary Development and Design Guidelines for subregions 1 and 7
of the coastal zone. He reviewed the guidelines that relate to this pro-
ject, as listed in the staff report. He said the applicant's architect
had submitted site plans and sectionals of the two proposed residences
and that he indicated that the elevations of the homes would be
presented at the meeting. Staff was of the opinion that the application
complies with the Preliminary Development and Design Guidelines and with
the requirements of the Subdivision Map Act. Staff, therefore, recom-
mended that the Commission approve the tentative parcel map and
conditional use permit subject to the draft resolutions and conditions.
He called attention to condition #2 of the conditional use permit
resolution which requires that a final site plan be submitted to the
Director of Planning for approval, and that the locations of the
residences be substantially as shown on the site plan approved by the
Planning Commission; also, that the ridgeline of each residence be
limited to the height as shown on the site plan.
In response to questions of Dr. Brown, Mr. Thompson said the Commission
was being asked to approve the locations of the structures and ther`,,
heights proposed only. He said other structures (tennis court, swimming
pool, etc.) were not within what Development Code permits and should
be removed. He said approval was for the primary structures only.
In response to questions of'Mrs. Bacharach, Mr. Thompson said staff's
reference to nonconformities with regard to setbacks, grading, etc.,
was related to accessory structures only, not the primary use. He said
the adjacent zoning in Palos Verdes Estates was R-1, 15,000 square feet
minimum lots.
In response to a question of Mr. Hughes, Mr. Thompson said the planning
study did not show any access ways at the subject location, and that
condition #27 was rewritten because of that.
Mr. Weber said the City initially expressed a desire that the planning
consultants look at trail access ways throughout the subregion. He
said it was pointed out that the possibility should not be eliminated at
this location. He said the consultants indicated that they were not at
that level of detail to determine one way or another at this point. He
said the consultants' study indicated no significant views across the
subject site. He said an analysis of the public view was done from
Palos Verdes Drive West.
Public hearing was re -opened.
Don Hendrikson, architect, 43 Malaga Cove Plaza, Palos Verdes Estates,
said the site plans came about by trying to develop homes to take advantage
of the site and should not block views. He said lot B was well below
Palos Verdes Drive West and that lot A was developed to try to take
advantage of the site. He said the house to the south was higher and was
oriented to the west and should not be affected. He said everything on
the north was parkland.
Dr. Robert Pratt, 3282 Paseo Del Mar, Rancho Palos Verdes, said the
access road was private. He wondered what evidence there was that
applicant had legal access to that road. He said if the access road was
not to be used, what would be the access to the property. He said he was
one of the three families that currently use and maintain the road.
Mr. McTaggart said one of the conditions of approval requires proof
of access and that access be delineated on the final map.
Dr. Pratt was concerned about maintenance of the road. He said he was
not trying to block use of the road, but wanted to'be sure it would be
maintained. He said the three properties currently using the road all
contribute towards its maintenance. He said the road easement is stated
in his deed.
Mr. Thompson said condition #25 requires a bond for future improvements
to the private access drive.
Dick Kildiszew, 1736 Chelsea, Palos Verdes Estates, said he was currently
being assessed for the road; that it is shown on his tax bill. He
said they could submit the original papers to the City. He said to his
knowledge he does have access from a portion of that private road.
�3n motion of Mrs. Bacharach, seconded by Mr. Hughes, and unanimously
'carried, the public hearing was closed.
Mr. Hughes expressed concern about the access road. He said the applicant
stated the road is part of his property, but the site plan does not show
that to be the case.
Mr. Weber said to the City's knowledge there was an access easement to the
approximate location as shown on the City maps. He said he was not
aware of the access being part of the applicant's property.
In response to a question by Mr. Hinchliffe, Mr. Weber said in terms of
determining the adequacy of the access to the property, following approval
of the tentative map, the map would be sent to the County Subdivision
Section of the County Engineer. He said they would review everything
including meets and bounds and would indicate where access easements
were available. He said this would be done prior to approval of the
final map. He said a lot of easements do not have maintenance agreements.
He said the Commission could provide a condition requiring that the
applicant not oppose any reasonable maintenance set up by the homeowners
that do,have access. He said he was working out wording for repairs to the
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road caused by damage during development.
Dr. Brown said the Commission does not know what CC&Rs exist and do
not have an accurate survey. He asked if a mistake was found would the
Commission be informed.
Mr. McTaggart was concerned because the project is located in the Coastal
zone where the City wants good control over development. He said this
project was not pinned down sufficiently for the Commission to make a
decision at this time. He felt the Commission needed more information
concerning site lines from the roadway showing the different elevations.
He said a good view analysis was necessary.
In response to Commission questions, Mr. Weber said the fact that the
topo survey was signed by a registered civil engineer from South Bay
Engineering indicated to him that the topography and meets and bounds
were reasonably correct.
Mr. McTaggart was concerned that South Bay Engineering did not spell
out evidence of an easement. He felt the Commission could not pin down
a site location without knowing exactly where the site begins.
Mr. Thompson said the Commission could add a condition "requiring that the
applicant bring site plans to the Planning Commission with a view analysis
prior to the issuance of building permits.
Mr. McTaggart felt this was an important project because of its location
in the coastal zone. He said South Bay Engineering should be able to
ascertain where the easements are. He said the applicant should submit
a revised map showing the easement. He was also concerned about the park-
land strip.
Mrs. Bacharach said she was uncomfortable with the site plan, as presented.
Mr. Hinchliffe asked about the legal constraints.
Mr. Thompson said May 15 was the deadline date for decision on the project.
Mr. Hinchliffe said the Commission wanted further view analysis and the
applicant should clear up the issue of the easement. He said the
applicant should not show the swimming pool and tennis court on the map,,
only the primary structures.
Mr. Thompson suggested that the applicant submit sectionals from Palos
Verdes Drive West.
On motion of Mrs. Bacharach, seconded by Dr. Brown, and unanimously
carried, Tentative Parcel Map No. 11896 and Conditional Use Permit No. 52
were tabled pending a view analysis based on sectionals from the Palos
Verdes Drive West medians to the coastline and the issue of the easements
being resolved.
CODE AMENDMENT NO. 9 Mr. McTaggart proposed changing the
Fences order of the agenda items by moving this
item to follow the last item under
New Business. As there were no
objections, Mr. Hinchliffe so ordered.
GRADING APPLICATION NO. 420 Mr. Weber reviewed the background and
30008 Knollview description of the project. He said
Appellant: Kay Ayers late -this afternoon when the staff
coordinator was looking at the plans,
he found a major error on staff's
part. He illustrated how the error was made on the chalkboard. He said
the map did not show the entire site and in reality the front property
line was on the other side, which makes the wall an upsloping wall instead.
Staff, therefore, recommended approval, and Mr. Weber said the appeal fee
would be refunded. He said, however, that in looking at the overall in-
tent of the Grading Ordinance and trying to visualize the visual character
of the wall, staff did have some conflicts with this particular wall.
He said if this was an interior lot it would be an automatic approval, but
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being a corner lot the wall allows for public view. He said based on the
location of the addition, a good portion of the 8 -foot wall should not be
viewed from the public street.
Mrs. Bacharach asked if the landscaping could be conditioned, and
Mr. Weber said yes.
Mr. Hughes said this was one of the things discussed by the Subcommittee
in reviewing the Grading ordinance. He was concerned that the ordinance
was not working very well. He said whether it is the front or the side,
the wall was still there, that there was no change in the impact on the
hillside.
Dr. Brown said he was comfortable with the staff recommendation for
approval as long as proper -landscaping was done.
Mrs. Bacharach was comfortable with the wall at this location. She
felt once the addition was there the wall would not be noticed.
Mrs. Bacharach proposed a motion, seconded by Dr. Brown, to grant the
appeal, thereby approving Grading Application No. 420.
Roll call vote was d's follows:
AYES: Bacharach, Brown, Hughes, McTaggart, Hinchliffe
NOES: None
ABSENT'*-., None
In response to an audience question, Mr. Weber said Environmental Impact
Report No. 16 for a 47 -unit development ad3acent to Ladera Linda School
was scheduled to be heard by the Environmental Committee on April 9.
He said geologic problems cited in the EIR necessitate a lot of grading.
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT NO. 57 Mr. Thompson said this request was
Reservoir #20 - Crest Road @ for the construction of a water pump
Eastfield station in an RS -2 zone. He said
Applicant: California Water the General Plan designation was
Service Company Infrastructure Facility. Staff
recommended that the Commission approve
the request subject to the draft
resolution and conditions. He said the City Manager of Rolling Hills
cailed today re one other change, that the water pump station be set
50 feet back from Crest Road instead of 30 feet, as proposed. He said this
was a recommendation by the Planning -i -Commission of Rolling Hills based on
the fact that that is the required setback in their City. Mr. Thompson
explained that he sent the information concerning this application to
Rolling Hills in order to have input from -them for tonight's meeting.
He said the project would have more imbact oh -their city and really
no impact on Rancho Palos Verdes.
Dr. Brown asked if the concern -,of Rolling Hills was with the visual impact
or the noise.
Mr. Thompson said they were concerned with both. He said the visual
concern was with viewing it from the road itself. He said the applicant
has met with the Rolling Hills_'> City Manager and it was his understanding
that the applicant was in agreement with the issues of concern.
Public hearing was opened.
Chuck Nollenberger, 4412 238th Street, Torrance, California,WAter Service
Company, said they have reviewed the recommendations of the City of Rolling
Hills and would comply. He said the 50 -foot setback was a new issue and he
would Tike the chance to discuss it with the Department. Re the noise
factor, he said there was some questionabout where the noise level would
be taken from. He said they wished to cooperate with both cities.
Mr. Thompson said the noise level would be measured from the property line.
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Mr. Hughes asked if the applicant was confident that they would not
exceed the dB(A). He guessed that the ambient noise in that area was
at least 60 dB(A). He felt a better definition was needed on that condition.
F. C. Ripley, 91 Crest Road, said he has lived there for 31 years. He
was in support of the "request. He said they own two home sites there,
one of which is vacant, and would like screening along the fence.
On motion of Mrs. Bacharach, seconded by Mr. Hinchliffe, and unanimously
carried, the public hearing was closed.
In response to a question by Dr. Brown, Mr. Thompson said the City of
Rolling --Hills has a noise ordinance calling for 35 dB(A).
Mr. Hughes did not feel this condition could ever be met, that there was
no way to not exceed 35 dB(A). He suggested that staff check out the
ordinance and also check the method of measurement.
Mr. Nollenberger said he would run this through the engineer, also.
He said they were proposing two 24 horse power pumps mounted in adobe
,%��
He said they needed 1250 gallons minimum to meet the requirements of the new
subdivision and that one pump would not meet that requirement.
Mr. Hughes said the staff should check with Rolling Hills and the applicant
was going to check with his engineer. He said between them they should come
up with some language for that condition that would work. He said they
would need a condition to limit the noise to some level above the
current ambient.
Mr. McTaggart felt the reference to Rolling Hills in condition #1 should
be eliminated.
The Commission agreed to change condition #1 to read "...plot plan and
elevations as approved by the Planning Commission on March- 25, 1980."
On motion of Mr. Hughes, seconded by Mrs. Bacharach, and unanimously
carried, the item was tabled.
The Commission complimented Mr. Thompson on the staff report format.
RECESS
At 9:35 p.m. a brief recess was called.
The meeting reconvened at 9:47 p.m. with
the same members present.
Mr. Hinchliffe distributed copies of a letter which had been sent to his
colleague concerning appearance of fairness. He discussed the case of
Woodland Hills Association vs. Los Angeles City Council.
CODE AMENDMENT NO. 9 Mr. Thompson explained that the item
Fences was continued from the last meeting
after discussing the information
submitted by staff. He said the
Commission requested additional information on the history related to the
proposed amendment and the status of related fence violations. Staff
researched the records and combined the information requested in chronological
order, attached to tonight's staff report. He also referred to the staff
report and attachments of March 11. Staff recommended that the public
hearing be continued and the Commission discuss the issues.
Mrs. Bacharach discussed the sites that she inspected. She felt the
hillside fences were generally very nice. She said she noticed a basic
difference between decorative fencing and what the City refers to as walls.
She said she found the closed wall effect objectionable, but the decorative
fencing was aesthetically pleasing. She said she was more concerned about
regulating walls than regulating decorative fencing. She said she did not
care for Hachikian's wall, but felt it waslo�-�� thoroughfare.
Dr. Brown agreed with Mrs. Bacharach's comments about walls vs. decorative
fencing, but disagreed about Hachikian's wall being fine because it is on
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•
a major thoroughfare. He felt "busy corner" must be defined. He said
he liked the idea of wrought iron fencing but did not care for the
appearance of chain link.
Mr. Hughes said there were a number of large upsloping lots on Granvia
Altamira which back up to Monero Drive. He said decorative pillars with
chain link strung between was appropriate along there. He felt the chain
link fencing there was functional, practical and did the job. He said he
would rather see chain link than block wall or solid wood.
Mrs. Bacharach said no ordinance would cover every case without exception.
Mr. Hinchliffe said the City's policy has been to avoid aesthetics and he
was therefore not sure the Commission should be dealing with aesthetics.
Mr. Hughes said the main purpose of fencing was to provide privacy and/or
security. He said with that purpose in mind, a wall should be used
to provide the maximu% and that is -already provided for in the existing
ordinance. He said decorative fencing would not provide much privacy and
that it was not necessary to have fencing up to the property line to obtain
security.
Dr. Brown felt the major reason for fencing was for aesthetics.
Mrs. Bacharach said the current Code does not cover a three-foot wall in
the front yard with decorative wrought iron fencing on top.
Mr. Hughes felt it was in direct conflict with the General Plan with
regard to rural area.
Mrs. Bacharach said there were two major types of lots in the City: hillside
lots and new tract lots.
Mr. Hughes agreed about hillside lots vs. tract lots. He said, however,
that most of the people in the City live on traditional lots, and felt
the City should control what is applicable to the majority. He said
there is a variance or minor exception permit procedures for the exceptions.
Mrs. Bacharach suggested different laws for different areas, possibly with
overlay control districts over hillside areas. She did not feel any
fencing should ever-� permitted all the way to the property line.
The Commission discussed possible wording to ensure that no fences would
be permitted closer than five feet from the front property line.
Barbara Hein, Councilperson, said the Council did not want to see rows
of solid walls up and down the streets.
Mr. McTaggart said another concern was view obstruction.
Dr. Brown said he was satisfied with the wording in the March 11 staff
report once the issue of the property line measurement is resolved.
Mr. Hinchliffe felt the item should be continued in order to formulate
the wording dealing with the measurement problem and a definition of
decorative fencing.
Mr. Hughes said his lot runs street to street and it did not make sense
that he would be able to put chain link fencing along Hazalridge but not in
the front along San Nicolas.
Mr. McTaggart said the topography make a difference.
Councilwoman Hein said the Council also wanted input from the Commission
on whether or not corner lots should be handled differently than interior
lots.
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Mr. Hughes said the City was proposing changing the ordinance -to fit a list
of projects existing now and will have to change',it-again later to fit
some new violations.
Mr. Hinchliffe suggested the Commission come totally prepared the next
time to make a decision.
Due to the difficulty of meeting all of the four required findings for a vari-
ance, Mr. McTaggart suggested that all fence applications fall under
a minor exception permit.
Mr. Weber pointed out they would still need criteria for a decision.
Mr. Hinchliffe asked if staff would assist in coming up with some wording
pertaining to the measurement from the property line.
Dr. Brown said the Commission should continue its discussion re hillside
vs. flat lots.
Mr. Hughes felt if the Commission was inclined to make a change to the
ordinance that it should very nearly be a removal of all restrictions or
remain the same. He said whether a fence is decorative or not, it still
does the same thing. The item was continued to the next meeting.
STAFF REPORTS Mr. Weber said the Commission was in
receipt of a revised height ordinance
which had apparently been drafted and submitted by the Council of Homeowners
Associations with some suggested changes to that portion of the code. He
reviewed some of these suggested changes with the Commission.
Mr. Weber said Prima Associates, Inc., was chosen as the civic center
pre -architectural consultant at the last City Council meeting. He
said they would be contacting various bodies in the near future for input.
Mr. Weber said he had budgeted for the Commissioners to attend the Planning
Commissioners Institute conference or have a seminar instead like they
did two years ago.
Mrs. Bacharach asked about having a combination. She said one or two
members could attend the conference and the Commission could also have
a seminar.
Mr. Hinchliffe felt if they could get an appropriate person, he would
prefer a seminar over the conferencq but felt they should retain some
flexibility to go either way.
COMMISSION ITEMS Mr. Hughes said there was a subcommittee
meeting on Saturday at which he met
with Councilwoman Hein and staff to review the Grading Ordinance. He out-
lined what he perceived as the problem. He felt it was not so much a prob-
16m with the ordinance, but rather a change in philosophy. In his opinion,
it was necessary to find out from the Council if there is, in fact, a major
change in philos6phy. He said in the past if someone lived on a steep
slope, they could have the primary structure but not tennis courts, etc.,
unless it met the Code. What the subcommittee agreed to do was go back
to the City Council and ask them if the philosophy now is that recreational
facilities take precedence over keeping -grading down. He said they were
trying to arrange with --the _Citv_C.ouncil_-a�-me&tin_g to discuss their_ intent.
Mrs. Bacharach asked about the building next to Ner Tamid. Mr. Weber
said the County would be contacting the Code Inspector On its status.
Mrs. Bacharach asked about the law suit against Tiburon re one dwelling
unit per acre zoning. Mr. Hinchliffe said Rancho Palos Verdes was
contributing $1000 in that law suit.
Mrs. Bacharach asked what was happening on Palos Verdes Drive East. Mr.
Weber said the Public Works crews were out cleaning,and he thought that
was what it might have been.
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Mr. McTaggart said since the—Coastal Commission raised the density in
the City's Coastal Plan and in view of the recent happenings --in the
newspaper concerning certain Coastal Commission members, he suggested that
perhaps the City Council should ask for reconsideration.
Mr. Weber said the Coastal Commission did not raise density.
ADJOURNMENT
At 11:35 p.m. it was moved, seconded,
and carried, to adjourn to Monday,
April 7, 1980, at 7:30 p.m.
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