PC MINS 20131022 Approved
November 12, 2013
CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
REGULAR MEETING
OCTOBER 22, 2013
CALL TO ORDER
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Emenhiser at 7:03 p.m. at the Fred
Hesse Community Room, 29301 Hawthorne Boulevard.
FLAG SALUTE
Commissioner Gerstner led the assembly in the Pledge of Allegiance.
ATTENDANCE
Present: Commissioners Gerstner, Nelson, Tomblin, Vice Chairman Leon, and
Chairman Emenhiser
Absent: Commissioners Tetreault and Lewis were excused.
Also present were Community Development Director Rojas and City Geologist
Lancaster.
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
The Agenda was unanimously approved as presented.
COMMUNICATIONS
Director Rojas reported that at their October 15, 2013 meeting the City Council initiated
a Development Code amendment to decrease the allowable construction hours in the
City. He also reported that the City Council agreed to amend the Municipal Code to set
four year term limits for Planning Commissioners, which is consistent with current City
policy, and to set a limit of up to eight years.
Director Rojas distributed nine letters of late correspondence related to agenda item No.
1,
COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE (regarding, non-agenda items):
Sunshine questioned if agenda item No. 1 was limited to the Gateway Park proposal or
if all of the General Plan update process was open for discussion. She asked if any of
the Commissioners had attended the September 2009 General Plan Workshop. She
felt staff should produce a Land Use Map that shows all of the approved land use
amendments to the General Plan so the public can see the cumulative changes that
have been made before new changes are discussed.
CONTINUED BUSINESS
1. General Plan band Use Map update — Gateway Park
Director Rojas presented the staff report, briefly giving a history and background of
Gateway Park. He discussed the current proposed area for Gateway Park, noting that
the area has been conceptually approved by the Public Works Department since it will
not interfere with projects that the Department has planned in the future, as well as the
PV Peninsula Land Conservancy. He explained one of the biggest issues with Gateway
Park is the use, noting the public has been very vocal in voicing opinions on whether the
use should be active or passive, as well as comments on the hazards present at the
area. He stated staff is recommending the area be designated Passive Recreation, one
reason being its proximity to surrounding residential neighborhoods but mainly because
of the landslide, noting the area is moving. He explained that since the Planning
Commission does not deal with landslide remediation projects or moratorium issues, he
felt it would be helpful to invite the City Geologist to this meeting to explain the landslide
movement in this area.
Jim Lancaster (City Geologist) discussed landslide movement within the Gateway Park
area, including the rate the land is moving, the reasons the land is moving, and the
subsidence in the area.
Director Rojas explained that this area is monitored very closely to see where cracks
are appearing and there is a plan in place to deal with these cracks so the public is not
put in hazardous situations. Therefore, staff believes a Passive Recreation designation
is appropriate, as this would allow activity in the area in a way that can be monitored
and managed. He also noted that the landslide movement being discussed by the City
Geologist was from October 2011 through September 2012.
Mr. Lancaster continued explaining the landslide in the Gateway Park area, noting that
movement can happen in one spot or it can happen in many spots within the area.
Therefore, even though the land is moving, one can walk in the area on a daily basis
and not see large cracks in the land. He stated he did not think it a good idea to put
buildings with foundations in the area and parking lots should not be paved.
Vice Chairman Leon stated he is a resident of the Portuguese Bend community, but on.
the west side where the movement is much slower. He stated he was also a member of
the Equestrian Committee, as well as the PUMP Committee that worked on the Vision
Plan. He stated that he felt he could bring his knowledge from this work to the table
without any form of prejudice.
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22,2013
Page 2
Commissioner Nelson noted the underlying zoning is Agriculture and Residential, and
asked staff if there are any residential homes in this area or any agricultural activity in
the area.
Director Rojas answered there are no homes or agricultural activity in the Gateway Park
area.
Vice Chairman Leon asked Mr. Lancaster if there are any practical remediation
techniques that can be used at Gateway Park that would provide for safe equestrian
use, or for the use of arenas and stable areas.
Mr. Lancaster noted cracks in the ground are a dangerous thing for horses. He
suggested the possibility of grading areas so they are more level for equestrian use or
cracks can be excavated and filled. He stated that in these types of areas there is a
tendency to put in soft materials into arenas and other areas where horses are present,
such as wood chips or soft dirt. He explained that this can mask a lot of issues with the
ground, and that can be a problem. However, doing diligent maintenance can avoid
many of the problems. He felt that in areas of movement of one to two feet per year it is
possible to do the maintenance and keep the area under control.
Vice Chairman Leon asked staff if the right-of-way for the road is identified through a
GPS location.
Director Rojas explained the City's position that legal lot lines and rights-of-way do not
move, but the land does. He noted the road through the area has moved, but the City
has the legal right to put the road back to where the actual road easement is located.
Commissioner Tomblin noted that staff has recommended against Active Recreation
because of the dangers of land activity, however there is discussions of grading for
parking lots and other uses. He asked staff to explain the discrepancies.
Mr. Lancaster clarified the proposed parking lot is already a fairly level area and gravel
would be placed in the area. He explained his concern with putting structures in an
area with this type of land movement, as this type of land movement will have
consequences on a structure,
Director Rojas added that what is guiding staff's recommendation is not only the
geology issues, but the Planning Commission's earlier decision, that the current
definitions of active and passive recreation be kept as is. He read the definitions of
active and passive recreation, explaining staff felt the area is more conducive to passive
recreation.
Commissioner Tomblin asked if conditions could be added to a passive recreation
approval that certain activities would not be allowed.
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22,2013
Page 3
Director Rojas clarified that conditions was not the right term, as this is not a project
before the Commission. However, in the subject zoning text amendment which is
proposed by staff to create the allowable uses for properties with recreational passive or
active zoning designations, parameters can be set as to what sort of use is allowed.
While that will set the parameters for all passive recreation sites in the City, this site is
unique because of the landslide and the Commission may wish to create a section that
discusses passive recreation uses in landslide areas which has a different set of stricter
parameters.
Commissioner Tomblin asked staff if they have a vision of what Gateway Park will look
like with the passive designation.
Director Rojas explained staff envisions, for the near term, the gravel parking lot and
trail heads. He added that at some point if the City Council or a group wants to propose
additional uses it will have to go through a public hearing to determine if that use is
compatible with the land use designation of Passive Recreation.
Chairman Emenhiser asked if this area will be deeded to the Land Conservancy at
some point.
Director Rojas explained that the entire former Hon property, including all of the
proposed Gateway Park, is owned by the City and there will be a final NCCP
conservation easement on the preserve portion, with the Conservancy overseeing the
conservation easement. Since Gateway Park will be excluded from the Preserve, it will
be City owned and managed, and the Conservancy will have no say in terms, of what
goes there unless uses impacts the Preserve in some way.
Chairman Emenhiser opened the public hearing.
Robert Maxwell stated he was representing Portuguese Bend Community Association
and referenced a letter from the PBCA meeting expressing their hope that the City will
continue with the passive use at Gateway Park.
Bob Mucha stated he lives in the Ladera Linda area adjacent to Forrestal. He stated he
at this meeting to endorse the parking needs to satisfy this park's activity. He explained
that cars to the area handle hikers, walkers, picnickers, children, bike riders, horse
trailers, buses handling students, emergency vehicles, and maintenance vehicles. He
stated he fully supports dirt or gravel roadways in the areas, as well as a dirt or gravel
parking area.
Chris Del Moro expressed concerns regarding the Gateway Park project, especially in
regards to the dangers he sees in the area. He noted a crack in the proposed passive
area that heads due west, is about 80 yards long, three feet wide, and is approximately
seventeen feet deep. He did not think a parking lot was a good idea, and felt the area
should stay exactly as it currently is. He did not think the zoning should change, stating
it is zoned hazard for a good reason. He was, in favor of equestrian use, hiking use, and
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22,2013
Page 4
bike use in the area, but was not in favor of a horse stable or corral. He urged the
Commission to not change the zoning and keep the property as is.
Maggie Orli stated she would like to see the zoning stay as it currently is. She agreed
with the comments made by the former speaker, reiterating that the area is unstable
and dangerous.
Al Edgerton stated he was representing Del Cero HOA, noting they worked very hard to
raise the money for the Preserve and are delighted that the area is there. He noted that
all of the visitors to the Preserve have created what he felt was an unsafe situation in
the Del Cero community with all of the people and parking issues. He noted that the
knowledge of the stat of the landslide has advanced over the years, and the Portuguese
Bend Preserve badly needs more access as there are currently only two means of
public access. He was concerned that without rezoning the area to either active or
passive there would not be a way to put in a parking lot, and he felt it was important to
have a place for visitors to park.
Commissioner Tomblin asked staff if a zone change was necessary in order to facilitate
some parking.
Director Rojas noted that the location of the proposed parking lot straddles the Hazard
and the Residential zoning districts. He explained that staff believes the code allows
this type of parking lot in Hazard areas, and in the Residential district with a Special Use
Permit.
Sunshine explained this area is often referred to as the "sandbox", and explained to the
Commission how the area got that name, with connections to grading and the landslide.
She pointed out that not all of the land in the Gateway Park is in the active landslide and
moving, but is in the moratorium. She questioned staffs choice of the area used to
designate the border to Gateway Park, pointing out that it's an old dirt road in an active
landslide.
Commissioner Tomblin referred to Sunshine's October 22nd email to the Deputy
Director, and asked Sunshine to clarify if her objection was that a change in zoning
would not be consistent with the General Plan.
Sunshine clarified that she felt all of the changes in regards to uses and parkland
designations should be presented when the City owns or buys the property, and should
be processed as an amendment to the General Plan, with separate public hearings for
each parcel. She felt this was a better system than lumping all of the properties
together and having one big review of one big change to the General Plan. She stated
it was a concern with the process being used.
Commissioner Tomblin asked Sunshine if her preference was active or passive use for
Gateway Park.
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22,2013
Page 5
Sunshine answered her preference would be active, as that would open up more
opportunities for discussion at a later date.
Ken Swenson stated he was representing the Land Conservancy. He explained that
Conservancy general stays out of land use issues, however when something affects the
lands that the Conservancy owns or has a conservation easement on, or manages, then
the Conservancy will speak on the topic. He explained he was not advocating a
particular designation, however he Conservancy would lean towards the passive
designation. He stated that the activities that happen in the park do become subject to
restrictions of the NCCP in regards to drainage, lighting, etc. In addition, he explained
one of the things the Preserve currently lacks is a type of entrance. He felt Gateway
Park could represent an entrance to the preserve, with parking, educational materials,
and perhaps portable restrooms and picnic tables.
Commissioner Tomblin asked Mr. Swenson if he felt the Conservancy would be able to
support a passive use of the area, which would include an equestrian use.
Mr. Swenson answered that the Conservancy would support equestrian use, noting the
Preserve is currently used as passive recreation.
David Sundstrom stated he read the staff report and geologist report, but felt what was
lacking was photographs taken from the area that illustrate some of the hazards at the
site. He noted he submitted late correspondence with such photos. He stated the
photos help illustrate how the landslide hazards would affect the everyday user in the
,area. He stated that on his walk over the weekend he saw many hazards that to him
appeared very fresh looking. He stated he supports staff's recommendation for passive
recreation for this parcel, and felt it would serve the City's best interest to do so.
Cathy Gardner stated she completely supports equestrian use for any and all of the
open preserve. She didn't think there was a concern for horses falling or getting hurt on
the trails, as horses and riders ride at their own risk and there is no such thing as a
perfect trail. She didn't think any equestrian would expect that. She questioned how
many parking spots would be proposed in the parking area, and also questioned if the
road is moved back to its original position, could the existing Palos Verdes Drive South
be used as parking.
Director Rojas stated that what is before the Commission is the General Plan land use
designation of Gateway Park, and the proposed parking lot and realignment of Palos
Verdes Drive South is not before the Commission at this time. He noted there will be a
public workshop in the near future to discuss the parking area and road realignment.
Chairman Emenhiser closed the public hearing.
Director Rojas clarified that the NCCP has certain rules in regards to land that is
abutting the Preserve, as Gateway Park will be. He noted one of the issues identified in
the NCCP is that cowbirds are a threat to the gnatcatcher, and cowbirds tend to thrive in
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22, 2013
Page 6
areas where there are equestrian uses. Therefore, if eventually there are equestrian
uses at Gateway Park the NCCP does call for certain actions to control the cowbird
population, which could include trapping. He also discussed the lack of signage on the
trails in and around Gateway Park, noting that they are absent since the area is not
managed by the Conservancy. He stated that by adding the portions of Gateway Park
into the Preserve there will be more trail signage added and maintained by the
Conservancy. He also explained there is a project underway to complete the California
Coastal Trail through the landslide area and that part of this project will include
additional signage to direct users away from hazardous areas and to the coastal
access.
Commissioner Gerstner moved staffs recommendation thereby approving the
proposed land use change to the General Plan Land Use Map for Gateway Park to
Recreation Passive, seconded by Commissioner Nelson.
Commissioner Tomblin asked staff if a passive designation would allow for some type of
equestrian use at the site.
Director Rojas answered that staff did not feel a passive use designation would exclude
equestrian uses.
Vice Chairman Leon explained the PUMP Committee identified the area as a possible
site for an equestrian center, which would likely fall more into an active recreation
category. However, subsequent to the PUMP Committee it appears this area has
increased its rate of motion and the number of fissures. In addition, the City Geologist
has stated he did not feel having a set of large fixed stables and bleachers was
advisable. Therefore, he did not think the area would support an active equestrian
activity. However, he did feel a passive equestrian activity could be formed in this area,
as there are forms of remediation and maintenance that could allow riding rings in the
area. He did not think there should be any additional fears of horses walking the trails
and getting hurt than there are for people hiking the trails.
Commissioner Nelson explained the reason for his second to the motion was because
he strongly believed an entrance to the Preserve area from the south was needed. He
also acknowledged that the area is moving and quite a bit of maintenance may be
required to keep the area safe. He briefly discussed liability issues and how liability can
be a very serious issue to the City, and felt that passive use as opposed to active use
when it comes to the liability issues.
Commissioner Tomblin stated he supported the motion, as he felt agricultural,
residential and hazard as the area is currently designated is outdated. In addition, he
felt the passive recreation allows some type of equestrian use, helps pave the path to
the Preserve, and the parking area will help with the congestion near Del Cerro Park.
He also supported a discussion on limited equestrian use in the area.
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22,2013
Page 7
While Commissioner Gerstner felt the City is short of active recreation areas, he did not
think this is the area for such a designation. He also felt that the Preserve needs an
entrance, and Del Cerro does not work. He felt that parking in the Del Cerro
neighborhood felt like trespassing into a quiet neighborhood. He did not think it is a
perfect location, however he did not think there was a perfect location. He stated the
Commission is being asked how the area is to be zoned, and he supported Passive
Recreation.
Vice Chairman Leon felt the issue was whether or not this is a hazardous area and
should be denoted as Open Space Hazard, or whether it could be Recreational Passive,
He felt through maintenance activities portions of this area can be maintained such that
they will not be hazardous to life and limb. He therefore supported the motion.
Chairman Emenhiser stated he also supported the motion, agreeing with comments
from the other Commissioners.
The motion was approved, (5-0).
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
2. Minutes of September 24, 201
Commissioner Gerstner moved to approve the minutes as presented, seconded
by Commissioner Nelson. Approved, (4-0-1) with Commissioner Tomblin
abstaining since he was absent from that meeting.
ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
1. Pre-Agenda for the meeting on November 12, 2013
The pre-agenda was reviewed and approved as presented.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 9:02 p.m.
Planning Commission Minutes
October 22,2013
Page 8