PC MINS 20120814 Approved
September 25,
CITY OF RANCHO PALES VERDES
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
REGULAR MEETING
AUGUST 14, 2012
CALL TO ORDER
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Tetreault at 7:03 p.m. at the Fred Hesse
Community Room, 2,9301 Hawthorne Boulevard.
FLAG SALUTE
Commissioner Gerstner led the assembly in the Pledge of Allegiance.
ATTENDANCE
Present: Commissioners Gerstner, Leon, Lewis, Nelson, Tomblin, Vice Chairman
Emenhiser, and Chairman Tetreault.
Absent: None
Also present were Community Development Director Rojas and Associate Planner
Mikhail,
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
The agenda was unanimously approved as presented.
COMMUNICATIONS
Director Rojas reported that at their August 7th meeting the City Council agreed, at the
request of the applicant/appellant, to continue the public hearing on an appeal of the
Planning Commission's denial of a View Restoration Permit on Narcissa Drive to the
September 18th City Council meeting,
Director Rojas distributed one item of late correspondence related to agenda item No. 1.
Commissioner Emenhiser reported on his attendance at the last Mayor's Breakfast.
COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE (re-garding non-agenda items):
None
PUBLIC HEARINGS
1. Coastal Permit, Grading Permit and Site Plan Review lCase No. ZON2012-
F01411: 3344 Palos Verdes Drive West
Associate Planner Mikhail presented the staff report, explaining which homes in the
neighborhood were used for neighborhood compatibility analysis, and pointing out that
the subject lot is not a pad lot but rather a downsloping lot. She displayed a site plan of
the proposed development, and explained the scope of the project. In discussing the
proposed grading, she noted the proposed quantities and that staff was supportive of
the 2,344 cubic yards for the residence, driveway, and a nominal amount for the flat
front yard area. However, staff felt that given the extent of the rear yard area, the 1,450
cubic yards of grading is excessive and can be minimized. She also explained that the
Coastal Specific Plan notes specific view corridors throughout the City and this
particular property is not cited as being in one of those view corridors. She noted that
the staff report discusses this topic in detail. In addition, she explained that staff also
looked at the previous application that was approved in 1999 where the project was
ultimately approved with a ridgeline elevation 275.75. This particular application is
proposed at 277.75 and staff is recommending the Planning Commission direct the
applicant to reduce the ridgeline to be consistent with what was reviewed and approved
in 1999.
Commissioner Gerstner asked staff to explain why an eight foot step is required on this
property, as discussed in the staff report.
Director Rojas explained that there are different ways to measure height on pads and
slope lots. The idea in regards to the eight foot step is to try to minimize grading by
setting a split-level house into the slope.
Commissioner Tomblin noted a two bedroom guest quarters on the site plan, and asked
staff how there was a possibility it would be used as a dwelling unit.
Associate Planner Mikhail explained that staff discussed this issue with the applicant,
and the applicant stated it would not be utilized as a second unit. The applicant will be
required to file a covenant that the area cannot be used as a second dwelling unit
unless future Planning Department review and approvals are obtained.
Commissioner Tomblin asked how staff would enforce the covenant.
Associate Planner Mikhail explained that if staff were notified that the guest quarters
were being used as a second unit, code enforcement staff would investigate.
Commissioner Tomblin asked if there will be restrictions on future planting on the site,
taking into consideration the many view restoration and/or preservation cases that have
occurred in the Berry Hill neighborhood. He referenced the Oceanfront Estates
landscaping with shrubs and lower vegetation.
Planning Commission Minutes
August 14,2012
Page 2
Associate Planner Mikhail explained that landscaping had not been considered in terms
of the Oceanfront Estates landscaping, which was developed as a tract. However, that
does not mean conditions cannot be added that will restrict what is allowed to be
planted and how high that vegetation can grow.
Chairman Tetreault discussed the Coastal Specific Plan and the two degree down-arc
guideline, and understood the proposed residence does comply with the 16 / 30 by-right
building envelope. He stated that if this is a guideline, and the applicant has proposed
less than a 16/30 by-right ridgeline, he questioned upon what basis the Commission has
to impose a lower ridgeline,
Associate Planner Mikhail explained that, given this is a discretionary permit, and
Coastal Permit finding No. I allows the Commission that discretion.
Chairman Tetreault asked if staff has done any analysis on the difference between the
ridge height the applicant is proposing at 277.75 versus staff's recommended height of
275.5, and what impact that would have upon anyone using the viewing station and how
that would open up views.
Director Rojas answered that no such analysis has been done other than what the
Commission has before them in terms of pictures and silhouettes. He reminded the
Commission that the proposed residence is not in a view corridor. In this case the
Coastal Specific Plan gives a guideline that may be used to try to protect views from
Palos Verdes Drive West. He noted that in regards to the homes built on Palos Verdes
Drive West, City Councils and Planning Commissions in the past have made numerous
interpretations of the guidelines and there is complete discretion on how the
Commission wants to apply this guideline.
Chairman Tetreault asked', when the former applicant was granted an approval in 1999,
if there is any record of an analysis done by either staff or the Commission as to how it
was utilizing its discretion to allow the home at that height versus the two percent down
arc calculation that would have been several feet below that.
Associate Planner Mikhail explained that the record does not reveal too much detail
other than the Planning Commission at that time felt that lowering the ridge line would
help protect views.
Chairman Tetreault asked if there is any type of cumulative view impact analysis that
should be taken into account with the development of this property.
Associate Planner Mikhail answered that this project does not involve a height variation
application and therefore does not have a cumulative view analysis as part of any of the
applications,
Director Rojas explained that in reviewing the records of previous decisions it appears
that the decision makers have attempted to reconcile what is a very strict guideline of
Planning Commission Minutes
August l4,2012
Page 3
getting a house below the grade with the reality that to do so would require an immense
amount of grading and hardship.
Commissioner Leon asked if the adjacent property has a single-story house built on it.
Associate Planner Mikhail answered that was correct.
Commissioner Leon asked if that lot had been graded down to create the building pad.
Associate Planner Mikhail answered that staff had looked at the lot to the south and
found no grading application in the file. She also could not confirm the topography of
the adjacent lot, however it appears to be a flat lot on the city's aerial photos.
Commissioner Leon asked if the two large houses to the north of the subject lot were
built with Variance applications.
Associate Planner Mikhail recalled the houses were built with the approval of a Coastal
Permit and a Height Variation, and a cumulative view analysis at that time took into
consideration the construction of a 16 foot tall home at 3344 Palos Verdes Drive West.
She added that for that residence there was a considerable amount of grading that was
also approved.
Commissioner Nelson pointed out that currently, when driving on Palos Verdes Drive
West, there is no view of the ocean along this stretch of road until one reaches
Oceanfront Estates. He felt that, in essence, when the Planning Commission is getting
concerned about the view from the subject property and maintaining an ocean view, in
fact there is no view from several areas along that stretch of Palos Verdes Drive West.
Chairman Tetreault opened the public hearing,
Louie Tomaro (architect) explained that a key point that has not been mentioned is that
this lot had a home on it at one time, which was demolished after the 1999 City approval
for a new house. Therefore views were already impaired by this original house and its
landscaping. He pointed out on this new submittal the setbacks are larger than what is
required by the Code, and he felt the owners have reached out to many of the
neighbors when designing this house. He noted that locating the house closer to the
street benefits the neighbor to the south in terms of his views and privacy. He noted
that the driveway has been located underneath the house so that it won't be seen from
Palos Verdes Drive West, however in doing so it creates extra grading for the driveway.
He noted that when driving south on Palos Verdes Drive West there is a view and by
keeping the house closer to the street one will be able to see quite a bit more of the
ocean for a longer length. He stated the second unit on the property is intended for the
owner's parents to have their own private unit and entry and is not intended as a rental
unit. In regards to the size of the building, he pointed out that this is a single story
structure unlike the larger two-story homes adjacent to the property and much of the
structure is subterranean.
Nanning Commission Minutes
August 14,2012
Page 4
Commissioner Nelson asked Mr. Tomaro if he can lower the house by two feet,
Mr. Tomaro felt it would be difficult, as it would cause additional grading if he were to
keep the ceiling heights as they are currently proposed,
Commissioner Tomblin asked Mr, Tomaro if he has had any discussions or would be
willing to have discussions with the neighbors in the tract above in regards to foliage
and landscaping.
Mr. Tomaro explained he has already met with one neighbor across the street in terms
of the foliage and landscaping and would be willing to work with other neighbors.
Vice Chairman Emenhiser explained his concern that there are really two constituencies
to consider, the immediate neighborhood and the citizens of the City who will drive on
Palos Verdes Drive West past this home and wonder what happened to their view. He
noted the staff report suggests the applicant will be amenable to changes, however Mr,
Tomaro has stated it will be difficult to lower the home by two feet. He asked Mr.
Tomaro, to clarify his position on being able to lower the structure.
Mr. Tomaro, explained that the coastal view issue came up late in the game and he is
trying to find ways to work ways with staff on this issue. In order to lower the house,
because it is on a slope, he will have to push the house back. This may start to affect
the neighbor to the south as well as those driving south on Palos Verdes Drive West.
He felt he would have to lower the building ten feet in order to see over it from the
street.
Vice Chairman Emenhiser asked Mr. Tomaro if he could lower the ceiling heights or the
pitch of the roof to help lower the height of the house,
Mr. Tomaro answered the pitch of the roof is 3 Y2 :12 and it could be lowered to pick up
a few inches.
Chairman Tetreault noted staff's recommendations on the grading quantity in the rear
yard, and asked Mr. Tomaro if he has given any consideration to the grading in the rear
yard.
Mr. Tomaro felt that creating several layers in the rear yard will help absorb some of the
grading in the rear yard, and felt confident that he can work with staff to come to a
solution.
Jason Sikola stated he resides across the street from the proposed residence, and felt
the proposed residence will take away his island and sunset views. He was also
concerned with where the City is going with these massive houses that are being built.
He felt this home is a bit excessive and was against the proposed structure.
Planning Commission Minutes
August 14,2012
Page 5
R,aiu Chhabria stated he is the realtor who sold the property to the applicant. He
clarified that the LaBarba house next door at 3300 Palos Verdes Drive West is 13,500
square feet on one acre of land. Similarly, the subject property is approximately one
acre of land. He noted that the applicant has made the offer to maintain the open space
area next to Lunada Pointe and the association is in favor of this offer.
Farand Ehtessabia stated he owns the property to the south of the subject property. He
stated that he has been driving Palos Verdes Drive for many years and does not think
there is much of an ocean view on any section of the road when driving towards
Hawthorne Boulevard. When driving in the other direction towards Palos Verdes
Estates, he felt that if a driver really stretches he can get a bit of an ocean view. He
stated this is a large lot and the owner paid quite a bit of money for the lot, and should
be allowed to build a larger home. He stated he was in support of the new project.
Commissioner Tomblin stated he is familiar with Mr. Ehtessabia's property and asked
him if he lives at the property.
Mr. Ehtessabla answered that he does not live at the property, and that the two homes
on the property are rentals. He stated that he will eventually demolish these homes and
build a home he can move in to.
Ramesh Khosla (owner) stated that he has quite a large family and this house will
accommodate that large family. He felt that even though the house may have been
approved at a lower height in 1999, he felt that circumstances have changed since then
and he should be allowed to have a bit higher roof line.
Louie Tomaro (in rebuttal) felt the City is set up in such a way that homes should vary
and shouldn't all be the same size. He noted there are large lots across the street with
large homes, and the newly developed homes are larger because of the larger lot. He
also felt that if there were a house on the property currently a lot of what is being
discussed would not be discussed. Because the house is gone and it is a vacant lot
everything is being looked at differently, and he did not think that should impact the
development of this particular lot. He stated there was a home on the lot with large
landscaping, and the lot should be looked at as a site that could be developed with a
single family residence that should meet the 16/30 guidelines, which he has done.
Finally, he felt that the bigger impact on views and what people see in the corridors is
more of a landscaping issue. He felt the impact from the mature landscaping is a huge
impact, more so than the actual residences.
Commissioner Tomblin asked Mr. Tomaro what would happen to the interior of the
home in terms of ceiling heights if the house were reduced in height by two feet.
Mr. Tomaro explained he would lower the home through combination of things,
including lowering some ceiling heights and lowering the roof pitch.
Chairman Tetreault closed the public hearing.
Planning Commission Minutes
August 14,2012
Page 6
Vice Chairman Emenhiser noted that in terms of neighborhood compatibility, this will be
the second largest home on an average size lot in this neighborhood. However, the
Planning Commission has not had much of a discussion in terms of neighborhood
compatibility and he thought there may be a general consensus that the size of the
proposed home is not really an issue. However, there is a neighbor that has concerns
about the size of the home and its impact to his views. He noted that the Planning
Commission will be judged by what is built on this property, as it is very visible to the
general public. He was therefore in favor of lowering the height of the structure, as
recommended by staff.
Commissioner Leon noted that the property owner by right can build a 16/30 house.
While he regrets losing the view of the ocean from the street, he noted that the property
owner has the right to build a house on this property. He felt that the public has been
using the property owner's views for many years, and the view is really the property
owner's view and by right they can build a house. He was not sure that lowering the
house would impact that loss of view. He would therefore support building the house as
he did not think a height reduction would serve any purpose.
Commissioner Gerstner agreed. He added that if the Commission were going to ask
that the house be lowered he would first like to see the beneficial impact lowering the
home would have on the views.
Commissioner Tomblin felt that because this is a downsloping lot, a large part of the
mass of the house will be absorbed as it goes down the hill. He felt he could therefore
justify the size of the house and did not have a problem with the square footage of the
house. He agreed with Commissioner Gerstner that he would like to see the benefit of
lowering the house two feet before asking the applicant to do so. He disagreed with
staff that this is not a cumulative view issue explaining that Lunada Pointe was
developed as a planned community, protecting views from Palos Verdes Drive West as
much as possible. The Planning Commission at the time also went to great lengths to
ensure the homes at Oceanfront Estates were developed to protect the views as seen
from Palos Verdes Drive West. He noted this property is only two properties down from
Oceanfront Estates. He felt there was precedent from the previous Commission to
protect the views from Palos Verdes Drive West. He felt that staff needs to consider,
and the Commission should consider, similar restrictions on the foliage at Oceanfront
Estates be brought to this residence.
Commissioner Nelson congratulated the architect on his design and felt this was a
magnificent structure. He saw no problem with the structure as far as views from Palos
Verdes Drive West being impacted. He felt this is a good plan and did not feel it was
necessary to challenge the architect for an additional two feet. He preferred to discuss
some solid landscaping recommendations, as discussed by Commissioner Tomblin.
Planning Commission Minutes
August 14,2012
Page 7
Chairman Tetreault asked staff if the Coastal Specific Plan guideline to try to protect
views from Palos Verdes Drive West would have been taken into consideration if the
proposed residence was on a pad lot at a proposed height of 16 feet.
Associate Planner Mikhail answered that the guideline would also be considered and
analyzed by staff, however the Planning Commission has the discretion as to whether
there is any validity in requiring the height to be lowered.
Director Rojas added that staff was recommending the height of the residence be
lowered, not based upon neighborhood compatibility, but rather based on the Coastal
Specific Plan guidelines. He also addressed Commissioner Tomblin's comments in
regards to cumulative view impacts. He explained that a cumulative view analysis is
one of the findings for a height variation. However, this project did not require a height
variation and therefore a cumulative view analysis was not required. This is not to say
that the Planning Commission cannot look at the Coastal Specific Plan guideline in
terms of cumulative views and how the project is looked at from driving down the
coastline.
Commissioner Gerstner asked staff if there has been any study of what benefit two feet
would have to views when driving down Palos Verdes Drive West.
Associate Planner Mikhail answered that there has not been a specific study done.
Director Rojas stated that staff can take the photo of property and the silhouette and
calculate where the ridgeline would be if the house were lowered two feet and how that
would affect the view.
Commissioner Lewis stated that if the Commissioner were to vote tonight on the merits
of this project, it would be arbitrary to require the applicant to lower the ridge by two
feet, or to deny him his backyard grading. He was open to continuing this matter to
allow staff the opportunity to illustrate what the benefit would be in lowering the
ridgeline.
Commissioner Lewis moved to continue the public hearing so that staff can
illustrate what benefit there would be by reducing the ridgeline by two feet and
what benefit there would be to limiting the grading in the rear yard, seconded by
Vice Chairman Emenhiser.
Commissioner Tomblin moved to make a friendly amendment to the motion to
ask staff to include the Oceanfront Estates landscaping restrictions for the
Commission to review. Commissioner Lewis accepted the friendly amendment.
Commissioner Leon moved to make a friendly amendment to amend the motion
to get some type of quantification of the amount of grading needed to lower the
lot byl0feet. Commissioner Lewis accepted the friendly amendment.
Planning Cornmiss'on Minutes
August 14,2012
Page 8
With that, Vice Chairman Emenhiser withdrew his second of the motion.
Commissioner Lewis withdrew his motion and stated a now motion to continue
the public hearing to allow staff to work up an illustration of the benefits that
would be obtained by lowering the height of the residence by two feet; if possible,
provide more information in terms of grading quantities to lower the lot and
house by ten feet; for staff to provide more information to the Planning
Commission on why staff was recommending denial of the extra grading in the
rear yard; and for staff to provide the Oceanfront Estates landscaping restrictions
for the Commission's review, seconded by Commissioner Leon.
Director Rojas noted that if the applicant agrees to an extension, the item would be
added to the September '11th agenda.
Chairman Tetreault re-opened the public hearing and asked Mr. Tomaro to the podium.
He asked Mr. Tomaro if the applicant will grant a one-time extension per the Permit
Streamling Act. He also questioned how easy it will be to calculate the amount of
grading required to reduce the house by ten feet, and how expensive it will be to do
that.
Mr. Tomaro agreed to grant the one-time extension. He stated he will work with staff to
calculate the benefit of lowering the ridgeline by two feet. In regards to the ten foot
reduction, he did not think it was physically possible to do and was not sure it would
even make sense to study such a reduction. He estimated it would take somewhere in
the neighborhood of 20,000 cubic yards of grading to accomplish this.
Commissioner Lewis clarified that in terms of the ten foot issue he was only looking for
some discussion by staff with the applicant as to what is involved with this issue and it
was not his intent for this to cost the applicant money.
Commissioner Nelson stated he would not support the motion, as he did not think ten
feet was worth looking at. He felt that the application as submitted was sufficient.
Chairman Tetreault agreed with Commissioner Nelson that the ten feet was probably
not practical. However, he felt that the other information contained in the motion is
beneficial and will vote in favor of the motion.
The motion to continue the public hearing to September 11, 2012 was approved,
(6-1) with Commissioner Nelson dissenting.
NEW BUSINESS
2. Outdoor lighting
Associate Planner Mikhail presented a brief staff report, explaining staff's research on
outdoor lighting and requirements in similar cities as discussed in the staff report. She
Planning Commission Minutes
August 14,2012
Page 9
stated staff was asking, to open up a discussion with the Planning Commission to see if
the Commission would like to consider creating any particular code regulations and
potentially a code amendment. She noted that that when the Planning Commission was
considering the General Plan update there was a section of the General Plan that was
added called Visual Resources. In that section there was a policy that was proposed to
recommended to the City Council related to night skies and outdoor lighting,
Commissioner Gerstner stated he had sent to staff information from the Dark Sky
Association and the research they have done. He stated there are also cities that have
recently established guidelines, Portland being one of those cities. He asked staff if
they could look at some of the municipalities associated with the Dark Sky concepts and
if that can expand on what he has given to staff. He noted that this is something that
does not have a 15 or 20 year history, but rather is more recently developed and a more
evolving concept. He stated that he personally bought his property in the city because
he likes the semi-rural darkness, and in general likes the fact that the lighting in this city
is more subdued. He felt that existing rules and regulations have led to more lighting in
the City. He felt there is a lot of misinformation out there, there is a lot of fear that an
area will be too dark, and there are a lot of prescriptive solutions. He wants to make
sure the Commission has reached as far as they can with this issue. He also felt that
the Commission might be able to compile something from what others have done that
might help solve the problems without having to do a lot of individual thinking on the
issue.
Vice Chairman Emenhiser asked Commissioner Gerstner for a brief description of the
difference between lumens and foot candles.
Commissioner Gerstner stated that historically there has been a lot of conversation
about watts, however now with the broad range of lighting elements, wafts is no longer
a valuable measure of light. He explained that foot candles are a measure the amount
of light that hits a specific surface, while lumens are a unit of light that is emitted from an
element. He also discussed glare and explained that one of the reasons the lighting at
Terranea works so well is their use of secondary or reflective lighting. Another thing to
consider is color temperature from lighting, as lights have different colors to them. To
summarize, in terms of outdoor lighting he would like to see more indirect lighting, an
attempt to control the color temperature of the lighting, and try to find some way of
measuring the amount of light in a measurement that works. He also felt that lighting
standards should be looked at for residential and commercial land uses.
Chairman Tetreault was not aware of codes addressing lighting in residential
neighborhoods,
Director Rojas explained there is a section in the code that addresses exterior lighting in
residential zones and non-residential zones. Staff does not typically put conditions on
the residential projects since the regulations are in the code as to what can and cannot
be done, and any complaints are dealt with through code enforcement.
Planning Commission Minutes
August 14,2012
Page 10
Commissioner Tomblin suggested the City establish some type of statement or policy in
terms of fighting that says the city wants to be a darker skies community. He asked if
staff could develop some type of statement,
Director Rojas noted that the General Plan update has a section called Night Sky to be
Preserved, which discusses exactly this topic. There is also a new General Plan policy
recommended by the Planning Commission that requires residents and developers to
mitigate light pollution associated with developments. He stated the General Plan
update will be before the Commission again before it goes to the Council and if the
Commission wants to augment those policies the Commission can do so.
Commissioner Nelson asked staff if the neighboring cities of Palos Verdes Estates,
Rolling Hills Estates, and Rolling Hills have any specific requirements for their outdoor
lighting.
Associate Planner Mikhail stated she would check into that information and give that
information to the Commission.
Director Rojas stated that staff will take this discussion into account and continue with
the research on the subject and bring the information back to the Planning Commission
at a future meeting.
The Commission agreed,
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
3. Minutes of July 24, 2012
Commissioner Leon moved to approve the minutes as presented, seconded by
Commissioner Nelson. Approved without objection.
ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
4. Pre-agenda for the meeting on August 28, 2012
The pre-agenda was reviewed and approved,
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 9:26 p.m.
Planning Commission Minutes
August 14,2012
Page 11