PC MINS 20120911 APPROVED
OCTOBER 9, 2012
CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
REGULAR MEETING
SEPTEMBER 11, 2012
CALL TO ORDER
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Tetreault at 7:02 p.m. at the Fred Hesse
Community Room, 29301 Hawthorne Boulevard.
Chairman Tetreault asked for a moment of silence in memory of those lost eleven years
ago on this date.
FLAG SALUTE
Commissioner Leon led the assembly in the Pledge of Allegiance.
ATTENDANCE
Present: Commissioners Gerstner, Leon, Lewis, Nelson, Tomblin, Vice Chairman
Emenhiser, and Chairman Tetreault.
Absent: None
Also present were Community Development Director Rojas, Deputy Community
Development Director Pfost, and Associate Planner Mikhail.
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
The agenda was unanimously approved as presented.
COMMUNICATIONS
Director Rojas reported that at their September 18th meeting the City Council will hear
an appeal of the Planning Commission's denial of a View Restoration Permit on
Narcissa Drive.
Director Rojas distributed one letter and four photos for agenda item No. 1 and four
letters for agenda item No. 2.
COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE (regardinq non-agenda items):
None
CONTINUED BUSINESS
1. Coastal Permit, Grading Permit, and Site Plan Review (Case No. ZON2012-
00141): 3344 Palos Verdes Drive West
Associate Planner Mikhail presented the staff report, giving a brief background of the
project and the Planning Commission's request that staff research any merits or
benefits to the community traveling on Palos Verdes Drive West of reducing the
ridgeline of the home by approximately 1 foot 9 inches. As a result of this request, the
applicant provided an extra string on the silhouette indicating the difference in elevation.
She showed photos of silhouette with the added string taken from Palos Verdes Drive
West. She explained that staff did not feel requiring the applicant to lower the ridgeline
1 foot 9 inches created any benefit and staff was recommending the Planning
Commission approve the project at the proposed height. She also explained that the
applicant considered redesigning the project based upon staff's previous comments in
the August 14th staff report. As a result, the applicant chose to increase the front
setback by approximately 10 feet, change the ridgeline from 277.45 to 276.73,
eliminating 127 square feet of the residence, and reconfiguring and reducing the overall
grading by approximately 772 cubic yards. She explained that staff had been
concerned with the excessive grading and the applicant has reduced the grading by six
inches in the rear yard for the cut and about a foot for the fill. She stated the Planning
Commission had also asked that the applicant give an opinion on what it would take to
make the house go down even farther. The applicant estimated it would take another
3,000 cubic yards to make this home go down even farther, and staff felt this would be
excessive grading for the home. She stated staff was requesting the Planning
Commission consider the information before them and determine whether or not it
meets their concerns. If the Commission's concerns have been met staff was
recommending approval of the project, and requesting the Commission direct staff to
return to the Commission with a Resolution of approval.
Louie Tomaro (architect) explained how he was able to cut the grading and how he was
able to shift the house. He noted that he pulled the house in at the rear because of the
south neighbor and his privacy. He pointed out the new multiple levels in the rear yard
to help reduce grading. He stated he planned to do quite a bit of mature landscaping on
the property, keeping in mind the height restrictions in place, as well as a lot of green
open space.
Commissioner Tomblin stated he previously had concerns in regards to trying to
maintain low hedge and fence heights, and asked the proposed wall height closest to
Palos Verdes Drive West.
Mr. Tomaro answered that there is an existing wrought iron fence adjacent to Palos
Verdes Drive West that will remain in place.
Ravi Khosla (owner) stated he is available for any questions.
Planning Commission Minutes
September 11,2012
Page 2
Jason Sikola stated he lives across the street from the proposed residence and was
opposed to the structure proposed on the property. He explained that he has looked at
the Municipal Code and found section 17.02.030, which he felt opposes what the staff is
presenting. He discussed what he felt was the immediate neighborhood, and did not
think staff should have used the entire zone as the immediate neighborhood. He
described the original house that was on the applicant's property, noting it was much
smaller and farther down on the slope. He very much objected to and was concerned
with the size of the residence, which he felt was in violation of the style, bulk, and mass
of the immediate neighborhood.
Louis Tomaro (in rebuttal) stated that the City is set up with different size lots and
different size homes, and there is a wide variety of homes throughout the City. He
noted that this is a large lot and can handle a larger home. He noted that while there
may have been a smaller home on the lot many years ago, recently the lot has been
vacant and this afforded the neighbor across the street a view. However, the property
owner has a right to develop his property and this is within the guidelines allowed by the
City.
Jason Buck stated he lives on Via Lorado. He understood the property owner's wishes
to build on his property, but was concerned about the size and height and wondered if it
could be lowered any further. He noted that the homes at Oceanfront are large,
however they are not visible from Palos Verdes Drive West.
Louie Tomaro (in rebuttal) stated he was not aware of any view impairments from Mr.
Buck's property on Via Lorado.
Chairman Tetreault closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Leon asked staff to clarify the definition of hillside lot, as he felt most of
this lot is flat except for the downsloping area near the rear of the property.
Associate Planner Mikhail explained that hillside lots are defined as not having a pad
that is less than five percent slope. When moving across this property from front to
back, the property maintains well over five percent slope, and at no point is there less
than five percent.
Commissioner Gerstner moved to direct staff to present a Resolution at the next
meeting approving the house as currently designed, seconded by Commissioner
Nelson.
Chairman Tetreault discussed the neighborhood compatibility requirements, and felt
confident that the current home meets the City's neighborhood compatibility
requirements.
Planning Commission Minutes
September 11,2012
Page 3
The motion to approve the project as currently proposed, with a Resolution to be
presented on the next Consent Calendar was approved, (6-1) with Vice Chairman
Emenhiser dissenting.
PUBLIC HEARINGS
2. General Plan Update — Passive and Active Recreational designations
Deputy Community Development Pfost presented the staff report, beginning with some
background information regarding the General Plan and how the active and passive
recreational land use designations were created. He noted that tonight what is of
interest under the recreational section is the active and passive recreational
designations, which are the park sites within the City. He noted how the General Plan
defines active and passive recreation and discusses various park sites within the
General Plan text and assigned an active or passive designation to them. He explained
that as part of the General Plan update, staff looked at the active and passive park
designations in the existing General Plan and looked at whether or not they made sense
in regards to where the active and passive designations for those parks were. He noted
that staff found some confusion with existing parks and some parks actually fell into
both active and passive designations. In addition, since 1975 the City has added quite
a few more parks, which are not addressed in the General Plan. He stated that staff
believes there are three issues that should be discussed by the Planning Commission:
1) should the specific active and passive designations remain: 2) If they do remain,
should the definitions be revised to provide more clarity; and 3) If the designations
remain then what designation should be assigned to each park in the City. He
explained that staff felt a good solution to remedying the details of what active and
passive should be may be to revise the Development Code and propose the
Development Code include an Active and a Passive Recreation zoning district, noting
that the Zoning Code currently has only one district implementing the active and passive
recreation which is called Open Space Recreation. Staff felt that if a Development
Code amendment is done after the General Plan is adopted, by including both active
and passive zoning districts, staff can then use each of these zoning districts to more
specifically state exactly the uses and developments permitted in each designation. He
added that by doing a Development Code amendment it might address the concerns
expressed by some residents of the city moving forward with park changes without
getting public comment on those park changes. He displayed a table noting the parks
in the City where no changes were proposed to the General Plan Land Use Map
designation. He also displayed a table showing parks where clarification was needed
and/or changes were being proposed to the park site. He explained staff's four-part
recommendation to the Planning Commission, as written in the staff report. He noted
that Carolynn Petru, the Deputy City Manager and the interim Recreation and Parks
Director was also present for any questions or clarifications the Planning Commission
may have.
Vice Chairman Emenhiser recalled the discussions regarding the planning process for
Grandview and Hesse Parks, and the inclusion of active and passive elements foreseen
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September 11,2012
Page 4
for the new park improvements. He asked staff how this discussion would affect those
parks that were planned to have both active and passive uses.
Deputy City Manager Petru explained that the plans for Lower Hesse Park did include
several active elements and the plan that the City Council originally approved had
several active elements, such as tennis and basketball courts. However the City
Council has recently directed staff to go back and work further with the Homeowners
Association that surrounds the site to work on a phased project. She noted that no
direction was given to making the park strictly a passive use park. With regards to
Grandview Park, the preferred plan the City Council adopted included many uses that
fall into a grey area as to whether they fall into an active or passive designation. She
explained that the Planning Department is currently going through the preparation of the
environmental review for the project and that is an issue that has certainly come up.
She noted that one of the areas the Mitigated Negative Declaration must look at is
General Plan consistency. Staff has been waiting for these discussions with the
Planning Commission to see what the definitions are going to be, as it could have a
significant impact on what may ultimately be decided for that park site.
Chairman Tetreault asked if the active and passive definitions would relate to the
preserve properties.
Deputy Director Pfost explained that in 2011 the Planning Commission looked at all of
the preserve properties in the City and redesignated them as Open Space Preserve,
which is a new General Plan land use district consistent with the NCCP. The active and
passive designations would relate to the typical park site properties.
Chairman Tetreault opened the public hearing.
John Freeman stated he is the president of the Pacific View HOA, which consists of the
345 homes that immediately surround Hesse Park. He stated he would address his
comments to Hesse Park, as that is the specific area of concern for the HOA. He
explained that when the General Plan was developed in 1975 Hesse Park did not exist,
and in 1978 when the park was developed and use began there was no designation or
differentiation between lower and upper Hesse Park. He suggested staff revise Table B
for Hesse Park so that the upper Hesse Park is designated active recreational and
lower Hesse Park be designated passive recreational. He noted staff's comment to his
suggestion that it would be difficult to assign a separate General Plan land use
designation for specific areas of each park site. He disagreed with staff's comment as
he felt that upper and lower Hesse Park have very distinct and specific demarcation
lines. He also noted that the surveys taken indicate the people want lower Hesse Park
to be a passive park.
Les Chapin (6710 Verde Ridge Road) stated he can look directly at lower Hesse Park
from his home and he would like to reinforce the comments made by Mr. Freeman to
divide Hesse Park into active and passive use parks.
Planning Commission Minutes
September 11,2012
Page 5
Sharon Yarber supported maintaining the active and passive designations that are in
the General Plan, noting this is not supposed to be a General Plan amendment but
rather a General Plan update. She referred to the definitions, pointing out some
inconsistencies. She felt the new definition for passive opens up a Pandora's Box by
allowing for interpretive centers and ancillary structures. She did not think buildings and
structures should be allowed on passive park areas. She felt more active recreational
activities are needed in the community, but she did want the parks in the coastal zone to
remain passive. She noted the problem is where to put active use parks, as there are
not many parks in the City that are not imbedded in residential communities. She noted
that the questions of equestrian use and mountain bikes use are not discussed, and
asked if they were going to be discussed in another area.
John Wessel stated he generally supports staff recommendations. However, he
disagreed with the designation of Gateway Park, as he felt it should be designated as
passive recreation. He also asked that the Commission consider the recommendations
made in late correspondence received from the Sierra Club.
Chairman Tetreault closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Lewis asked staff to respond to Mr. Freeman's suggestion that Upper
and Lower Hesse Park have different designations.
Deputy Director Pfost explained that staff was concerned with going into park sites and
designating certain areas as passive and active, and trying to distinguish where passive
and active should be inclusive within one park. However, he understood Mr. Freeman's
point that Hesse Park is a bit different in that it has very distinct upper and lower areas.
In addition, staff was also concerned that this may preclude active recreation in the
future in those areas. The original General Plan text as well as the General Plan land
use designation on the existing General Plan designates Hesse Park in its entirety as
active. Staff was keeping with the same context as the original General Plan.
Deputy City Manager Petru added that much of the reason Hesse Park is developed the
way it is stems from budgetary issues over the years. She noted that over the years
different City Councils have had the desire to include some elements of active reaction
there, but it has always been a matter of money. She also explained that the current
City Council did not take any type of action or direct staff in any way to modify the
conceptual Sycamore Plan for Lower Hesse Park. Rather, the Council asked that staff
come back with a scaled back, phased project.
Chairman Tetreault asked staff if Hesse Park is designated as a single unit or as two
separate parks.
Deputy Director Pfost answered that Hesse Park is designated as a single park.
Chairman Tetreault asked staff if dividing the parcel at Hesse Park into two different
zones would be more of a change to the General Plan rather than an update. He was
Planning Commission Minutes
September 11,2012
Page 6
concerned that this may be a substantive change to what is in the General Plan, and
referred to Ms. Yarber's comment that this is a General Plan update and not a General
Plan amendment He was concerned as to how far the Commission should go in terms
of updating the General Plan.
Deputy Director Pfost explained that staff looked at the text of the General Plan as well
as the Land Use Map to get to a point of what staff felt the proposed land use should
be. Where it was clear, staff kept everything the same. Where there were new park
sites added a new designation was needed and staff had to make a determination as to
the designation. He explained that staff was attempting to stick with an update as
opposed to getting into the details of what the future use of the park will be or what
future City Councils may put on the park site.
Chairman Tetreault noted that this updated General Plan will be in existence for quite
some time, and asked if the Planning Commission should therefore recommend to the
City Council their vision for the future of certain parcels. As an example, he questioned
if the Planning Commission should be recommending to the City Council that Hesse
Park have a split zone designation between active and passive because that is what the
Commission foresees it to be, or does staff think that would be stepping beyond what
the Commission is being asked to do.
Deputy Director Pfost was not sure that such a recommendation would be stepping
beyond what the Commission has been asked to do. The General Plan is being
updated and there are things that need to change, and if it's the City's vision to see
different changes then those changes most likely should occur in this updated General
Plan.
Chairman Tetreault asked if the matter of splitting Hesse Park into two designations was
something before the Commission or is that a matter that has already been discussed in
prior discussions of the General Plan update. If not, is this the appropriate time to
discuss this topic.
Deputy Director Pfost answered that was something that has not previously been before
the Commission and this is the first time it has been brought to the attention of the
Commission. He felt that this is possibly an appropriate time to discuss such a change,
however if the Commission were to consider such a change staff would first have to
provide notification, which has not yet been done.
Commissioner Nelson felt the Commission was in place to listen to the comments of
40,000 residents. Tonight two residents have strongly suggested that Hesse Park be
divided into two zoning districts, and he has no problem backing that suggestion.
Commissioner Tomblin noted at Lower Point Vicente there are several designations.
He understood these designations, however questioned how one would know where
one designation stops and the other starts, and if there is an overlap between the two
designations.
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September 11,2012
Page 7
Deputy Director Pfost explained there is a line where the Open Space Preserve stops
and the Passive Recreation starts.
Director Rojas added that in regards to Lower Point Vicente, only the bluffs are in the
Open Space Preserve. The rest of the area is Passive Recreation.
Commissioner Tomblin again referred to Lower Point Vicente, noting the Interpretive
Center with all of its activity, parties, and rentals, is located in the Recreational Passive
area. He could see the argument that the Interpretive Center could be classified as
Active Recreation. He asked if it would behoove the City to define the Interpretive
Center as Active Recreation.
Deputy Director Pfost explained the Interpretive Center is in the definition of passive.
Staff noted that many passive park sites have the potential room to add interpretive
signs, kiosks, or centers. He noted the proposed Development Code amendment would
create an active and passive zoning district on these properties and in that zoning
district if, for instance, an interpretive center was being proposed at some other passive
park site, it would have to go through the proper procedures and permitting process as
defined in the zoning code.
Commissioner Lewis noted staff's recommendation that the Land Use Map designation
for Ladera Linda's Community Center be changed from Institutional Educational to
Institutional Public. He asked staff if the active and passive designations apply to this
area.
Deputy Director Pfost answered that they do not apply to this area.
Commissioner Lewis felt that the Table that ultimately gets presented to the City Council
should separately deal with Upper and Lower Hesse Park. He felt it would be helpful to
the City Council to highlight the concern of the residents regards those two different
aspects of the park. He felt it was within the Planning Commission's purview to deal
with this subject tonight, as the Table in the staff report put the residents on notice that
the Commission would be discussing the designation of Hesse Park.
Vice Chairman Emenhiser was confident that decisions about various parks will
generate many comments from the surrounding HOAs and he didn't want the Planning
Commission to get ahead of itself and make some decisions without notification and
comments. He agreed with comments that the Commission should look at active and
passive designations. He was also interested where bicycles and horses would end up
in the definitions.
Commissioner Gerstner felt the active and passive designations should remain in the
General Plan, noting the General Plan is general and should remain general. Given
that the designations remain, there are definitions that should be discussed as he did
not feel the current proposed definitions were the best they could be. He felt some
Planning Commission Minutes
September 11,2012
Page 8
clarify was needed in the definitions and staff and the Commission should spend some
time on these definitions. He also believed the recommendation made to the City
Council should include the multiple designations in the Development Code, as he felt it
was the correct place to add more clarity to what is in the General Plan in regards to
passive and active parks. In regards to the redesignation of parks, he felt there are a lot
of passive parks in the community however as the City slowly eliminates the active
parks in the City, the City may end up with nothing but passive parks. He did not think
that was appropriate, as parks should also be community places more for children than
adults. He was not generally in favor of splitting Hesse Park into upper and lower,
however the way the park functions it could very easily be split. With regards to
adjusting the definitions, he felt there is a real challenge in regards to structures and
anything that can go into a passive park. He felt PVIC should be considered an
existing, non-conforming structure as it goes beyond what a passive park should have.
Commissioner Leon felt that having active and passive is appropriate, and that more
time was needed to rewrite the definitions of active and passive. Specifically, he did not
think significant amounts of energy belonged in the definition of active, as it is a term
that is more confusing than clarifying. He suggested leaning more on the definitions
from the National Park Service, as he felt they were good definitions and fairly broad
definitions. With respect to the different park areas, if Hesse Park actually functions as
two parks, he would certainly be supportive of having two separate designations.
Chairman Tetreault noted the original General Plan has no mention of equestrian or
bicycle uses and asked staff if there had been any consideration made with respect to
the update, knowing this has been a rather controversial matter in recent years.
Deputy Director Pfost felt that equestrian and bicycle activity could fall into either active
or passive use. He stated that, again, this is where the Development Code change to
go into more specifics would be useful.
Chairman Tetreault felt that, with respect to Upper and Lower Hesse Park, while the
Planning Commission could make the recommendation to bifurcate the park and giving
it two designations, he felt it was a rather substantial policy issue that should be
reserved to the City Council to make. It should be noted to the Council that there is
significant community interest to do so, but he felt it should be a City Council decision.
In addition, he did not like the idea of using the expenditure of energy or effort as some
basis for defining activity, and was also concerned about the use of the term level of
organization as a benchmark.
Commissioner Gerstner moved to continue the public hearing to October 9, 2012;
to agree the active and passive designations stay within the General Plan; to ask
staff to work on the definitions and present the Planning Commission with a few
options that are consistent with Planning Commission comments; and that the
Commissioners take time to look at parks they may not have seen and then at the
next meeting be prepared to make a determination on those parks, seconded by
Vice Chairman Emenhiser. The motion passed without objection.
Planning Commission Minutes
September 11,2012
Page 9
ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
3. Pre-Agenda for the meeting on September 25, 2012
The pre-agenda was reviewed and approved as presented.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 8:54 p.m.
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September 11,2012
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