PC MINS 20110726 Approved
August 2011
CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
REGULAR MEETING
JULY 26, 2011
CALL TO ORDER
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Tomblin at 7:05 p.m. at the Fred Hesse
Community Room, 29301 Hawthorne Boulevard,
FLAG SALUTE
Commissioner Leon led the assembly in the Pledge of Allegiance.
ATTENDANCE
Present: Commissioners Emenhiser, Gerstner, Knight, Leon, Lewis, Vice Chairman
Tetreault, and Chairman Tomblin.
Absent: None
Also present were Deputy Community Development Director Pfost and Assistant
Planner Kim,
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
The Commission unanimously agreed to hear agenda item No. 2 before agenda item
No. 1.
COMMUNICATIONS
Deputy Director Pfost reported that at their last meeting the City Council followed the
Planning Commission's recommendation to keep the temporary banner permit program.
Staff will follow up with the City Council in terms of proposed locations.
Deputy Director Pfost distributed eleven items of late correspondence for agenda item
No. 2.
COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE (rg_qardin_q non-agenda items):
None
PUBLIC HEARINGS
2. General Plan Update Review
Deputy Director Pfost presented the staff report, noting staff's recommendation that the
proposed text regarding passive versus non-passive land use designations be deferred
to a future meeting so that staff has the opportunity to speak to members of the public
who have expressed concerns. He noted that the remainder of the proposed General
Plan text that is before the Commission was publically noticed, no new changes have
been made, and could be discussed by the Commission this evening..
Chairman Tomblin opened the public hearing.
Ken Duda stated that he came to speak on the issue of parks, but was gratified to hear
the Commission is considering reviewing the entire General Plan issue. In regards to
the park issue, he felt there was a deliberate position taken to differentiate between
active and passive. He stated that neither staff nor the City Council at the time was
really responsible for the General Plan, and its genesis was basically from over 250
residents who struggled for a year to come up with it and put the terms in the document.
He felt that any change, in terms of the General Plan, should go back to review the
goals report to see why they did what they did and why the differentiations are there.
He commended the Commission for wanting to look at more than the park portion and
felt that was appropriate.
Commissioner Lewis moved to continue the public hearing until such time as
staff has had an opportunity to meet with members of the public, and provide at
least 30 days notice to the public that this will be before the Planning
Commission. The notice should conspicuously describe that the issue of active
and passive use designations will be discussed at the meeting, seconded by
Commissioner Gerstner. Approved, (7-0).
1. Code Amendment (Case No. ZON2010-00293)
Assistant Planner Kim presented the staff report, gave a brief background of this
proposed code amendment, noting that at the previous meeting the Planning
Commission had questions related to how Public Works would conduct a visibility
analysis and directed staff to return with more information. She explained, as discussed
in the staff report, the criterion used by the Public Works Department is written by the
American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials. She noted that
because every residential property has different topography, layout, location on the
street, and different traffic flow, Public Works conducts a traffic visibility analysis that is
customized on a case by case basis. Therefore it is difficult to have standard language
that could be codified on how the analysis is actually done. She also noted there was
mention at the last meeting to consider modifying the 20 foot setback to 10 feet. She
explained that the shortest distance the Public Works Department conducts a view
analysis from is 14.4 feet, and because of other variables to be considered, staff is
recommending leaving the setback at 20 feet. Additionally, she explained that the
Planning Commission had asked staff to craft code language that would be somewhat
Planning commission Minutes
July 26,2011
Page 2
similar to view restoration in that having a hedge over 42 inches would not automatically
become a code enforcement issue if the hedge had no visibility or view impacts. She
noted that staff had several concerns with this type of language with regards to
documentation, maintenance, enforcement and staff's time. After speaking to the City
Attorney on this matter, staff added a subsection that requires a hedge owner to apply
for a permit. She noted that two resolutions have been included in the staff report- one
reflecting the original Planning Commission direction and one with the added subsection
requiring a permit.
Commissioner Knight noted that there is an analysis for visibility, but the proposed
amendment also deals with view impact. He asked staff what standards would be used
in evaluating view impact.
Assistant Planner Kim answered that the same criteria used by the Planning
Department now in terms of primary viewing area in looking at height variation
applications, as well as view restoration and view preservation applications.
Vice Chairman Tetreault asked why staff and the City Attorney felt that a permit process
was necessary.
Assistant Planner Kim explained that staff was concerned that there would be no way to
document the height at which a certain hedge over 42 inches would cause a view
impairment. Without some type of documentation every time a concern is raised
regarding the hedge height it would cause planning staff and public works staff to do a
view analysis and traffic visibility analysis. A permit process would give documentation
that the hedge does not cause view impairment at a specified height and if the hedge
exceeds that height, it would trigger a code enforcement case.
Vice Chairman Tetreault noted that in some cases a tree may be allowed to grow up to
40 feet in height, depending on topography and location, without any type of permit.
However, this proposal would force residents to get a permit for a hedge over 42 inches
in height even though it may not cause any adverse impacts to traffic or views. He was
concerned about requiring permits for things that don't have any adverse impacts.
Deputy Director Pfost understood the Vice Chairman's concerns, and explained that
staff had concerns about being able to document what an approved height for a
particular hedge might be, specifically because the hedge is in the front yard and there
could be traffic impacts. Staff wanted to be able to acknowledge and document the
height of the hedge so there is an enforcement mechanism to ensure the hedge stays at
the approved height.
Vice Chairman Tetreault asked if, by the fact that code enforcement staff is called out to
a particular site for an over-height hedge and writes a letter stating the hedge must be
reduced to a specific height, that there is then documentation as to how high the hedge
can grow.
Planning Commission Minutes
July 26,2011
Page 3
Deputy Director Pfost explained that code enforcement staff would go to a site and
require a hedge be reduced in height, however this height is not acknowledged
anywhere except for a closed code enforcement file. By requiring a permit, the permit
will be on file in the address file and will acknowledge the height of the hedge.
Vice Chairman Tetreault asked if there has ever been an instance where a hedge less
than 42 inches in height has caused a public safety issue.
Deputy Director Pfost answered that the code allows a hedge up to 42 inches in height,
and therefore was not aware of any situation where a hedge under 42 inches would
cause a public safety issue. He noted that with properties in the intersection visibility
triangle, hedges are restricted to only 30 inches in height.
Commissioner Gerstner asked if staff currently gets phone calls about hedges blocking
driveways and causing safety issues.
Deputy Director Pfost answered that code enforcement staff gets calls regarding
hedges, but thought it was more of an aesthetic issue rather than a traffic safety issue.
Commissioner Gordon felt that an unanticipated consequence of allowing hedges over
42 inches in height is that there is the possibility that several houses in a row will then
have a six foot hedge along their front property line. He asked staff if views from the
public right-of-way have been considered, specifically if there has been any discussion
regarding significant view impacts from the public right-of-way.
Assistant Planner Kim answered there has not been such a discussion.
Deputy Director Pfost added that the height variation findings include a finding that talks
about views from public property, and similar language could be added to this.
Commissioner Knight could see the benefit to staffs recommendation regarding a
permit, noting that city staff would only have to make an analysis of the hedge once and
not have to go back to the property every time a complaint is made. He noted this
recommendation only addresses hedges in the front yard setback, and asked staff what
would happen with a corner lot,
Assistant Planner Kim explained that this recommendation is structured to include
hedges in the front yard setback and hedges in the intersection visibility triangle. The
intersection visibility triangle would take in hedges on a corner lot in both the front and
side yards,
Chairman Tomblin opened the public hearing,
Julie Scrivens stated she was against staffs recommendations for several reasons.
She questioned if staff had discussed this with the Fire Department or the Sheriffs
Department in regards to safety issues. She noted at the last meeting it was stated that
Planning commission Minutes
July 26,2011
Page 4
the Public Works Department would prefer hedges in the front yard setback at 30
inches, and that staff has pointed out that only 10 to 20 percent of the residents that are
in violation. She explained that when she moved into her home she had a view,
however today there is no view because of neighbor's hedges. She was also
concerned about the safety of children in the neighborhood,
Chairman Tomblin closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Lewis moved to adopt stafff s recommendation with the exception
of subdivision 4 concerning the permit process, seconded by Commissioner
Emenhiser.
Commissioner Lewis explained that he felt staff was well intentioned in suggesting a
permit process but he felt it brings undo burden on the residents in terms of the
application. He felt that it creates more bureaucracy and didn't think it solved any
problems.
Commissioner Gerstner felt a clear understanding and definition of an intersection was
needed. He questioned if the intersection is two streets or if it is being defined as the
intersection of the street and a driveway. He didn't think something should be created
that will cause the City a lot of extra work in analyzing traffic views out of driveways.
Deputy Director Pfost noted the intersection visibility triangle is clearly defined in the
Development Code, and read the definition to the Commission,
Commissioner Gerstner asked staff if the recommendation, as written, would include an
analysis of visibility coming out of a driveway.
Deputy Director Pfost answered that the way it is currently worded Public Works would
go out to a property and view the driveway.
With that, Commissioner Gerstner stated that he would be against the motion.
Commissioner Emenhiser stated he agreed with Commissioner Lewis and his concern
with item 4. He also understood Commissioner Gerstner's comments regarding the
burden on staff. However, he stated that he was in favor of the motion.
Commissioner Leon moved to include a reference in paragraph 3 to include views
from public property as well as viewing areas in the motion.
Commissioner Lewis accepted the amendment and Commissioner Emenhiser
seconded.
Commissioner Knight noted that this code amendment was generated from the City
Council and staff was directed to bring an amendment to the Planning Commission, He
asked staff what motivated the City Council to ask that this code be changed.
Planning Commission Minutes
July 26,2011
Page 5
Assistant Planner Kim explained that there were quite a few complaints about hedges
that were brought to the attention of code enforcement. In looking at hedges, it was
noted that there are quite a few hedges in the City that are in violation of the current
code. Staff suggested a code amendment to the City Council, who agreed to the code
amendment initiation. After researching the subject, staff felt that leaving the code at 42
inches was prudent, and went to the City Council in an attempt to withdraw the code
amendment initiation request. However, the City Council felt there might be situations
where hedges can be taller than 42 inches and not be a safety hazard, and asked to
find a way to allow that on certain properties.
Commissioner Knight stated he was in favor of including views from public rights-of-
way. In terms of taking out number 4, he had mixed feelings. He understood not
wanting to require additional permits to residents and the added regulations. However,
he understood the intent was to try to save the City money as well as the property
owner's aggravation since it will cause the City to come out every time to reanalyze the
hedge.
Vice Chairman Tetreault felt that if the Commission were looking to decrease the work
load of staff in regards to these hedges, he was not sure how this helps and could not
see how this addresses the problem. He noted that the City does not currently allow
six- foot tall fences and walls in front yard setbacks, and a hedge is just a growing wall.
He felt that by allowing this, the City is permitting a change in the aesthetics of
neighborhoods. He wouldn't want to see neighborhoods become more and more walled
off from the street and look more like private estates. He understood that the City
Council may want some type of amendment, however he also felt they should hear from
the Planning Commission and possibly hear a contrary view, For that reason he was
opposed to changing the current code of 42 inches.
Commissioner Gerstner moved to amend the motion to also eliminate staffs
paragraph No. 2, but keep Commissioner Leon's amendment to paragraph 3.
Commissioner Gerstner explained that by eliminating item No. 2 it would effectively
allow hedges to exceed 6 feet in height as long as they don't impair views from viewing
areas or the public right-of-way. He stated this would still give staff the ability to review
hedges in terms of the intersection visibility triangle.
Chairman Tomblin seconded the motion.
Commissioner Leon asked staff if they felt the City Council wants to allow six-foot high
hedges in the front yard setback as long as they meet a set of criteria, or are they
relatively silent on the six-foot versus forty-two inch issue,
Assistant Planner Kim clarified that the City Council wanted some type of process to
allow hedges over forty-two inches in height and did not specify whether or not they
wanted a maximum height of six feet,
Planning Commission Minutes
July 26,2011
Page 6
Commissioner Knight pointed out that if the Commission agrees to move ahead to
eliminate the language in 2 and 4 then the language should be adjusted in E to remove
the portion discussing the visibility triangle, which is discussed in a separate section of
the Code,
Commissioner Gerstner agreed and moved to amend his motion to also correct
the language in E to say "permitted in the front yard setback with exception to the
intersection visibility triangle". Seconded by Chairman Tomblin.
Vice Chairman Tetreault expressed a concern in that this proposal is now removing a
public safety element where clearly there could be a public safety issue. He stated that
if he were to weigh staff time versus public safety, public safety would win,
Commissioner Knight asked staff if the other section of the code dealing with the
visibility triangle would also address the public safety issues that are a concern of the
Vice Chairman.
Deputy Director Pfost explained that there is a section of the Code that discusses the
visibility triangle, and public safety issues would be addressed in that section, however
that section of the code does not discuss where a driveway may exit elsewhere on the
property and the public safety issues with that situation.
Commissioner Lewis stated that he does not support Commissioner Gerstner's
proposed amendment and would like to retain paragraph 2. If the City Council chooses
to allow hedges that exceed 42 inches, then paragraph 2 is important.
In regards to the motion to eliminate staff's paragraph 2, the motion failed by a
vote of(3-4) with Commissioners Emenhiser, Knight, Lewis, and Vice Chairman
Tetreault dissenting.
Deputy Director Pfost summarized the original motion, which is to adopt staffs
recommendation with the exception of No. 4, and add to No. 3 the issue of views from
public property.
Commissioner Leon felt that the majority of the City has very suburban types of
neighborhoods with front yards that are roughly connected together and having a 42
inch hedge height limit, by right, is consistent with the City's current urban design. He
felt that going to a 6 foot hedge height is inconsistent with the City's current urban
design. Voting for this code amendment will allow people to have, by right, six foot
hedges around their entire properties, which he felt would negatively impact the
community.
To that extent, Commissioner Lewis agreed. However, he felt the mandate from the
City Council was to find a way to allow hedges over 42 inches in height in the front yard
setback. He stated that he would be willing to amend his motion to add a conspicuous
Planning commission Minutes
July 26,2011
Page 7
and explicit statement that the Planning Commission feels that as a better policy the
City should not allow hedges over 42 inches in the front yard setback.
Vice Chairman Tetreault agreed, however felt it might be better to have such language
as a separate motion.
Chairman Tomblin agreed that the City Council has given the Planning Commission a
mandate and the Commission is working to meet the request of the Council. However,
the Commission has some reservations, and he thought splitting the vote was a good
idea to give an opinion and to express their concerns.
Commissioner Leon preferred to have the Planning Commission's opinion as part of the
original motion. He stated he could support the motion if it included a recommendation
that the first choice is to leave the hedge height at 42 inches and the second choice is to
raise the height if necessary.
Commissioner Lewis agreed to amend his motion to say that the Planning
Commission recommends leaving the hedge height at 42 inches; however, if the
City Council desires to make any changes then adopt staff's recommendation
with the exception to subsection 4 and include a reference to paragraph 3 to
include views from public property, seconded by Commissioner Emenhiser.
Deputy Director Pfost felt it would be beneficial if the Planning Commission would
express to the City Council their concerns in allowing hedges up to six feet in height in
the front yard setback.
Commissioner Lewis withdrew his motion and proposed two new motions. The
first motion is for staff to convey to the City Council that the City continue to
restrict hedges in the front yard setback to 42 inches in height. The Second
motion was to adopt staff's recommendation with the exception to subsection 4
and include a reference to paragraph 3 to assess views from public property,
seconded by Commissioner Emenhiser.
Commissioner Lewis explained that his intent was that no matter how the vote comes
out for the first motion, the Planning Commission will still vote on the second motion to
give the City Council their recommendation should they choose to allow hedges over 42
inches.
The first motion for staff to convey to the City Council that the Planning
Commission feels 42 inch high hedges in the front yard setback is a sufficient
height was approved, (4-3) with Commissioners Emenhiser, Gerstner, and
Chairman Tomblin dissenting.
The second motion to adopt staff's recommendation excluding paragraph 4, and
include a reference of not blocking views from property was approved, (5-2) with
Commissioners Gerstner and Knight dissenting.
Pianning Commission Minutes
July 26,2011
Page 8
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
3. Minutes of July 12, 2011
Vice Chairman Tetreault moved to approve the minutes as presented, seconded
by Commissioner Knight. Approved, (5-0-2) with Commissioners Emenhiser and
Leon abstaining since they were absent from that meeting.
ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
4. Pre-Aqenda for the meeting on August 9, 2011
The Commission discussed and accepted the pre-agenda.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 8:43 p.m,
Planning Commission Minutes
July 26,2011
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