PC MINS 20100622 Approved
July 27, 0
CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
REGULAR MEETING
JUNE 22, 2010
CALL TO ORDER
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Gerstner at 7:00 p.m. at the Fred Hesse
Community Room, 29301 Hawthorne Boulevard.
FLAG SALUTE
Commissioner Lewis led the assembly in the Pledge of Allegiance.
ATTENDANCE
Present: Commissioners Emenhiser, Knight, Leon, Lewis, Tetreault, Vice Chairman
Tomblin, and Chairman Gerstner.
Absent: None
Also present were Community Development Director Rojas, Deputy Community
Development Director Pfost, Associate Planner Mikhail, and Assistant Planner Kim.
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
The Agenda was unanimously approved as presented.
COMMUNICATIONS
Director Rojas reported that at their June 15th meeting the City Council re-introduced the
Ordinance that would enact the various code amendments originally proposed by the
Residential Development Standards Committee and approved by the Planning
Commission. He noted that the new code requirements will only apply to new
applications submitted after the effective date of the Ordinance.
Director Rojas distributed two items of correspondence for agenda item No. 1 and one
item of correspondence for agenda item No. 3.
COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE (regarding non-agenda items):
None
PUBLIC HEARINGS
1. Lot Line Adjustment & Variance (Case No. ZON2009-00434 & SUB2009-
00005): 5 Bronco Road and 27 Stallion Road
Associate Planner Mikhail presented the staff report, explaining the scope of the project
and the need for the Lot Line Adjustment and the Variance. She stated that due to the
fact that these non-conformities would be created in order to accommodate the
encroaching improvement, paired with the fact that a judge ordered the applicant to
submit a Lot Line Adjustment application with specific descriptions identified in the court
order, staff felt that all findings for the Variance could be made. Furthermore, the Lot
Line Adjustment would not affect the buildable area of Parcel A, as the lot lines would
be adjusted on the extreme slope where building is prohibited. As such, staff was
recommending approval of the Lot Line Adjustment and Variance applications.
Commissioner Leon asked staff if allowing Parcel A to become a parcel with a
substandard lot size would cause any implications in their future development because
the lot is less than the minimum size.
Associate Planner Mikhail answered that with the smaller lot size the allowable lot
coverage would be reduced. She noted that there are other lots in the neighborhood
that are of a similar size.
Chairman Gerstner opened the public hearing.
Amy Studarus (applicant) stated she was representing the homeowners and her
company, which prepared the lot line adjustment maps. She stated that she has read
the staff report and the conditions of approval, and has no objections.
Helen Kim stated she is the attorney representing the owners of Parcel B identified in
the staff report. She too has read through the staff report and Resolution and has no
objections. She gave a brief history of the two parcels and how they came to this point.
Commissioner Lewis asked Ms. Kim what the consequences would be to the settlement
if the Commission couldn't make the findings necessary to approve the Variance and/or
the Lot Line Adjustment. He also asked if the settlement agreement included a
provision in the event that the Commission could not support the application.
Ms. Kim answered that if the application is not approved the applicants will be in
violation of the judge's order and they would have to go before the judge to discuss the
options. She stated that there is no provision in the settlement agreement for a plan B if
this application is denied.
Commissioner Lewis discussed the findings that must be made in order to approve this
application, and asked Ms. Kim what the substantial property right is that the
Commission should find in order to grant this lot line adjustment.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 2
Ms. Kim felt that if the Variance and Lot Line Adjustment applications were to be denied
the Abdula's would be most impacted as they have structures, including a portion of
their home, that encroaches onto the Engel property. If the applications were denied, a
portion of their home, a portion of their deck, and a portion of their pool would have to
be removed.
Commissioner Lewis asked, if this application were to be denied, if there was room for
negotiations and a middle ground where the Abdulas would not have to remove a
portion of their home.
Ms. Kim explained that there were many considerations, including easements, however
a lot line adjustment will give these owners and all future owners a clean break in that
both parties will own their own property and pay taxes on their own property.
Commissioner Tomblin asked if the Abdulas were responsible for building any of the
improvements on the property that are now in question.
Ms. Kim stated that all of the improvements were in place when the Abdulas purchased
the property.
Commissioner Lewis noted that at the last meeting there was a very similar situation
before the Commission that he voted against. He explained that he voted against that
request because he was not able to make two of the findings necessary to approve a
Variance request. He stated that he does not think a man made encroachment qualifies
as an exceptional or extraordinary circumstance. Therefore, to be consistent with his
vote two weeks ago, he will vote against this application.
Associate Planner Mikhail explained that staff has discussed this application with the
City Attorney. The City Attorney agreed that the Commission is not obligated to make
the findings for approval of the Variance because of the court order. However, the City
Attorney felt that this was the cleanest approach and agreed with staff's
recommendations.
Commissioner Tetreault stated that he does not find a lot of weight in the court's order.
He noted that it is binding upon the parties involved, however the city is not a party to
this action. He asked, absent of the court order, would staff be able to make the
findings for the Variance.
Associate Planner Mikhail answered that staff would be able to make the findings with
or without the court order. Staff felt that improvements done with permits that took
place on someone else's property is a unique situation or exceptional circumstance and
the resulting lot is not compromised in any way.
Chairman Gerstner asked staff if there are other RS-2 zoned lots in the City that are
non-conforming due to their size.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 3
Associate Planner Mikhail answered that there are many lots in the RS-2 zone that are
non-conforming due to their size.
Chairman Gerstner asked staff if they are aware of other instances where permitted
structures have been built across lot lines.
Associate Planner Mikhail stated that this has happened many times within the City.
However, based on the number of properties there are in the City, it is not an ordinary
occurrence.
Chairman Gerstner felt that having a structure that the City permitted built over a
property line is not an ordinary occurrence, which makes it unique. He also felt that the
Planning Commission is here to serve the City and make sure that the residents are
allowed to use their property in a reasonable manner. He felt that at some point in time
the City told the property owner that they could build this house and swimming pool, in
that location, and enjoy the rights associated with it. Now, if the City does not grant this
request, the City is telling the owners they can't enjoy their property the way we told
them they could.
Commissioner Emenhiser supported the Chairman's remarks. He felt that 35 years ago
a mistake was made when these permits were granted and the house built in the
present location. He stated that he could make the findings and agreed with staff's
recommendations.
Commissioner Lewis did not feel the Commission was voting on whether or not these
improvements could remain. If the Commission votes against the lot line adjustment the
parties have a number of other legal remedies they can pursue that would allow the
improvements to stand. He stated that the Commission has to identify a substantial
property right.
Commissioner Tomblin questioned if there could be some other configuration with the
lot line that would prevent the lot from becoming nonconforming.
Associate Planner Mikhail explained that staff looked into other alternatives, but felt the
proposed lot line adjustment was the best alternative.
Commissioner Tomblin discussed the findings and would be more comfortable if the
language was removed that referred to the court order.
Chairman Gerstner agreed, adding that he could support approval of this application per
staff's recommendation with the exception of the implication that he is making the
finding because of the court order. He stated that he can make the findings without the
court order and he wouldn't want any Resolution to imply that he made his findings
because of the court order.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 4
Commissioner Tetreault felt that a reasonable interpretation of his thought process in
this particular case was that the homes and structures on the property were fully
permitted by the County, there is no indication that the current owners knew what they
were getting into when they bought their property, and they are totally innocent of any
wrong doing. Further, there is no other reasonable solution other than changing this lot
line. Therefore, he was able to make the findings necessary to approve the Variance.
Chairman Gerstner moved to approve staff's recommendation as amended to
show the findings were made on their merits and not relative to the court order
itself, seconded by Commissioner Leon. The motion adopting PC Resolution
2010-20 was approved, (6-1)with Commissioner Lewis dissenting.
2. Revision to Conditional Use Permit (Case No. ZON2009-00469): 27774
Hawthorne Blvd.
Assistant Planner Kim presented the staff report explaining the proposed revision is to
remodel the existing Chevron Station on Hawthorne Boulevard. She explained the
proposed scope of the project and staff's concern that the proposed addition appears
too tall and prominent. She stated that staff feels adding minor fagade treatments found
in residential structures can soften the look and result in a less obtrusive structure. As
such, staff has added a condition to the Resolution requiring the applicant submit
revised plans to the satisfaction of the Community Development Director prior to
submittal to Building & Safety plan check. She stated that the Chevron station will
comply with the new parking requirements and that the Public Works Department has
reviewed the plan and identified issues, which staff has addressed. With that, staff is
recommending approval of the project as conditioned. Finally, she noted a sentence on
page 11 of the staff report that should be omitted, as it is inconsistent with staff's
recommendations.
In evaluating whether the Commission should make the findings to support a Mitigated
Negative Declaration, Commission Lewis asked if the Commission should only look at
the incremental impacts of the proposed addition and sign rather than the impact of the
entire operation of the gas station.
Assistant Planner Kim answered that was correct.
Commissioner Knight asked if the brightness of the proposed "Extra Mile" sign was
specified.
Assistant Planner Kim answered that the brightness is not specified, however staff
anticipates that it will be no brighter than the existing signs on the property. Staff added
a condition that there be a 45 day review period.
Commissioner Knight asked if the landscape plan subject to the landscaping ordinance.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 5
Assistant Planner Kim answered that the landscape plan is not subject to the landscape
ordinance, explaining that the landscape plan is based on automotive overlay or
convenience store overlay requirements for landscaping, which is to landscape the ten
foot setback from all street side property lines. She noted that no new hardscape is
proposed for the property and the owners are not remodeling the existing hardscape.
Commissioner Knight discussed the vapor recovery system and asked if the
Commission had any discretionary review of this system.
Assistant Planner Kim explained that was not part of the original Conditional Use Permit
and was approved separately under a Site Plan Review. Staff does not regulate where
the equipment is located, provided that it is outside of the minimum setbacks and the
height is in accordance with what is allowed for an accessory structure. Therefore, the
Commission cannot move the equipment but if they feel it is unsightly they can suggest
it be painted to match the building.
Commissioner Knight noted that staff was recommending the structure look more
residential-like, and asked staff if they had any suggestions.
Assistant Planner Kim noted suggestions would include adding a fake planter or a faux
balcony on the second floor to breakup the full fagade. She also included the
possibility of extending out the roof eaves or adding a trellis structure in front of the
entryway to soften the look. She referred to condition No. 18 and noting that staff
added this condition because the type of fagade treatments that staff is looking for are
not significant enough where staff is not currently able to make the findings necessary
to recommend approval of the project.
Vice Chairman Tomblin expressed concerns with the proposed signage, notably the
"Extra Mile" sign, and asked staff if they looked at alternatives to this type of big can
sign.
Assistant Planner Kim stated that staff has not looked at alternatives, noting that there is
the 45 day review period.
Director Rojas added that the Code does not prohibit or discourage can signs.
Vice Chairman Tomblin referred to the proposed monument sign and asked if this
amount of advertising is allowed on the sign.
Assistant Planner Kim explained that the advertising is proposed within the existing
monument sign. If the applicant were proposing a larger sign, staff may have had
concerns.
Director Rojas added that the Code regulates the size of the sign, and how an applicant
uses that space is up to them. He noted that the sign permit refers to the two new signs
being requested and does not apply to this existing monument sign.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 6
Chairman Gerstner stated that he is comfortable with the Mitigated Negative Declaration
and the monument sign. He stated that he is generally in favor of changing the
Conditional Use Permit to allow the square footage to be increased and the use can be
as requested. However, he stated he could never support the submitted addition as he
felt the massing couldn't be worse. He stated that placing a second story at that corner
of the property was taking the lowest portion of the property and placing the highest part
of the structure at that point, and therefore its prominence along Hawthorne Boulevard
would be exaggerated. He did not feel that cosmetic changes to make it look more
residential would change the way it looks, as he felt the way the building would be
perceived was by its massing. He felt that there were many opportunities on the
property to accomplish the goal in several different ways and there are places to put
that mass that will be a lot less impactful on the way it is seen from the street.
Director Rojas understood the Chairman's concerns, and explained that if the
Commission has concerns with the design it will have to be tied to a finding.
Chairman Gerstner opened the public hearing.
Gale Coffman (applicant) explained that the reason the addition was proposed for the
front, explaining the hill behind the property shrouds any addition put on the property in
terms of height. He felt that this addition will blend into the hillside and will not impose
itself onto people driving by the property. He felt that the existing short, squatty building
only emphasizes the height of the new proposed section. He explained that the
proposed design does not have trellises and other fagade treatments was because it is
almost impossible to make this piece of property with a gas dispensary and car wash
tunnel look like a house. He did not feel that tacking on features was very conducive to
the clean look of the building. He noted that he tried to keep the building as simple and
clean as possible.
Vice Chairman Tomblin appreciated what Mr. Coffman had to say, but noted that a
recent remodel at the Golden Cove Center as well as a Chevron Station on Hawthorne
Boulevard were both done in a manner that was unobtrusive and maintained a
residential feel to the property.
Chairman Gerstner explained that he is concerned with the scale of buildings that are
on corners and have such prominence in the community. He felt that this gas station
and car wash has a very friendly, community feel to it and this proposed addition will
increase the mass of the structure to the point that the character and feel of what is
currently there will be completely lost. He felt it will then be looked at as a commercial
facility in the City where now there is more of a neighborhood car wash and gas station.
He felt this is a bigger shift than everyone is ready for and he didn't think it is one that is
necessary. He thought there were ways to design the building to keep the character
and feel that he currently enjoys but still accomplish what the applicant needs to
accomplish.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 7
Juvenal Jovet stated he lives across the street from the car wash and this proposed
addition will be directly in hi sight when looking out his windows. He objected to the
proposed addition.
Commissioner Knight asked Mr. Jovet if he can see the silhouette flags from his home.
Mr. Jovet answered that he can see all of the flags from his home.
Commissioner Tetreault asked Mr. Jovet what view will be lost if the proposed addition
is built in the present location.
Mr. Jovet answered that he will not be able to see the large hillside.
H.B. Stafford stated he also lives across the street from the project site. He felt that this
project wouldn't be too bad if it weren't so visible and obvious from the street. He felt
that the proposed addition is quite imposing and will impact many people.
Commissioner Knight asked Mr. Stafford if he could see the flags from his home.
Mr. Stafford answered that he cannot see the flags from his home, only when he is
walking or driving down the street.
Commissioner Lewis agreed with the Chairman's comments regarding this proposed
addition. However, with that being said he also noted that he is able to make the
necessary findings in order to approve the project as currently submitted. He felt it was
the neighborly thing to do to try to redesign the project to make it less commercial
looking as was done at Golden Cove and Hillside Chevron because it only improves the
City, but he did not think he could impose that onto the owners.
Commissioner Emenhiser agreed with Commissioner Lewis and his comments and
could also make the necessary findings.
Commissioner Leon agreed with the Chairman's comments. Regarding the signage, he
felt that the signage at Golden Cove is far superior to what is seen at this site and he
would like to see that signage emulated at the gas station site.
Commissioner Knight also had concerns with the bulk and mass of the proposed
project. His concern with the appearance and its affect on the neighboring properties
makes it difficult to make finding No. 3.
Commissioner Tetreault agreed with Commissioner Knight that the bulk and mass of the
proposed project was a concern and the affect of this project on the adverse affect on
adjacent properties. He stated that he would like to see the massing in the current
location moved to someplace else on the property to see what affect that would have on
the neighborhood and the view when driving down Hawthorne Boulevard.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 8
Chairman Gerstner asked the architect, Mr. Coffman, if it would be possible for him to
go back and look at some more dramatic variations on this project.
Mr. Coffman answered that he can look at changes to the facade that will openly soften
the look of the building. He stated that it is very difficult to take a commercial site and
not have it look commercial to some extent. However the issue of placing the second
story someplace else on the building is a very difficult issue. On the other end of the
building there is a large power transformer and several clarifiers. Further, he felt that
most of the business would have to be shut down while putting on an addition at the
rear of the property.
Chairman Gerstner asked Mr. Coffman if he was going to be able to keep the car wash
open while building foundations for the second story are being built and all of the
extensive remodel is taking place.
Mr. Coffman answered that he will absolutely be able to keep the car was open while
construction is underway.
Chairman Gerstner asked Mr. Coffman how long it would take him to come up with an
alternate design that can be presented to the Planning Commission.
Mr. Coffman answered that to present plans that are not changing the mass but only
softening the design and exterior view, he could produce plans in two weeks.
Assistant Planner Kim stated that July 13th is the first available date for the Planning
Commission to hear this item. She also suggested an alternative, explaining the current
plate height is 12 feet, while the building code requires a minimum of 71/2 feet. She
suggested lowering the plate height to the minimum required by the building code may
mitigate some of the bulk and mass issues.
Commissioner Lewis moved to continue the public hearing to July 13, 2010 to
allow the applicant the opportunity to redesign the project to address the
Planning Commission's concerns, seconded by Commissioner Knight.
Commissioner Knight explained that his issues with the project as proposed included
the bulk and mass of the building, and felt the addition should be pushed towards the
rear of the property. He also felt that reducing the height of the addition would help the
overall bulk and mass.
Vice Chairman Tomblin stated that there are two findings he cannot make, No. 3 under
the Conditional Use Permit, and No. 6 under the convenience store findings.
Commissioner Emenhiser stated that he would be able to vote for approval of this
project as currently designed, however he would prefer to see the addition lowered and
the appearance softened.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 9
Commissioner Leon felt the purpose of having the mass on the corner as proposed is to
provide a large sign post. To eliminate that and to adhere to the residential character of
the neighborhood he felt that that mass needs to be shifted and there needs to be some
stipulations on signage.
Chairman Gerstner agreed that the applicant should provide a more detailed
explanation of the signage would be helpful to the Commission at the July 13th meeting.
The motion to continue the public hearing to July 13, 2010 was approved, (7-0).
3. General Plan Update— "Draft" Fiscal Element and "Draft" Housing Element
Insert
Chairman Gerstner and Vice Chairman Tomblin stated that, as members of the
subcommittee for the fiscal element, they were not able to put in the time reviewing the
element that they wanted to, and therefore asked that the discussion on this element be
continued to the next meeting.
Deputy Director Pfost stated that July 13th will work, and explained that he will need all
of the information from the subcommittee by a specific date that he will email to the
subcommittee members.
Deputy Director Pfost discussed the draft Housing Element insert. He explained that
the actual Housing Element has already been adopted by the Planning Commission and
City Council, and certified by the State of California. He explained that the Housing
Element is a very thick document whereby, instead of being inserted into the General
Plan, an insert could be put in the General Plan in its place. He briefly went over the
three options provided in the staff report for the draft Housing Element Insert and
explained it was a question of which option the Planning Commission would prefer.
Commissioner Lewis felt that the shortest version of the three options has the least
possibility of conflicting with outside General Plan document. He therefore supported
adoption of the shorter document.
Deputy Director Pfost stated that staff agrees with that point.
Chairman Gerstner agreed that a shorter version would be best, noting however that
sometimes when using these documents there is some benefit in having expanded
outlines. He felt this would be outweighed, however, by the potential for conflict.
Commissioner Leon stated that his experience has been that the important elements of
the General Plan are the goals and policies. He felt that there should be goals and
policies for all of the sections, and in this case the goals and policies of housing should
be included so that one can look at the General Plan to see what the goals and policies
of the City housing element are.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 10
Commissioner Knight agreed with Commissioner Leon in that he also felt the goals and
policies of the City should be included in the insert.
The Commissioner agreed that the middle option would be the best option to include as
the draft housing element insert.
4. Discussion of the "Foliage as condition of permit issuance requirement" of
the Development Code
Director Rojas presented a brief staff report, noting that this item was before the
Commission as a result of a request from Commissioner Leon. He explained the history
of how this condition came about and how staff implements this condition. He noted
that staff implements this condition based on the Ordinance and the Guidelines adopted
by the City Council.
Commissioner Leon stated that there is a process for applying for a viewing area, but
what appears to be happening is that the Planning Department is giving out viewing
areas for free to some residents and charging other residents for viewing areas. He
could understand looking at trees associated with a building permit and how they affect
already established viewing areas of neighboring residents, as this would be looking at
trees that somebody has a concern about. However, he felt that now staff is being
proactive and encouraging viewing areas and causing residents to have to cut down
trees so that people who really didn't care enough to establish a viewing area could
have one. He felt that the City could interpret the Ordinance, within the goals and
objectives of the Ordinance, as treating viewing areas as ones that people have applied
to have rather than the City going out independently and encouraging people to have
viewing areas.
Commissioner Knight questioned if this would be a change to the language in Prop M,
as Prop M specifies the removal of foliage as a condition to permit issuance.
Commissioner Leon stated that the language in Prop M specifies that the foliage to be
removed is foliage that blocks a view from a viewing area of another parcel. Therefore,
if no viewing area has been determined then there is no view to be impaired.
Director Rojas explained that the way staff implements the City Council direction is to go
out and identify viewing areas of properties.
Commissioner Tetreault noted that Commissioner Leon was specifically addressing the
removal of foliage as a condition of permit issuance. He stated that there have been a
number of discussions regarding whether or not somebody is complaining about a view
obstruction or not, and often these discussions are in regards to a structure rather than
the foliage. He stated that it is an objective test as to whether or not a proposed
structure above 16 feet will block a view from a surrounding parcel.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 11
Commissioner Leon noted, however that these are different in that it is easy to ask
someone to cut down their tree that is blocking a view, but it is very difficult to ask
someone to cut down their second story because it is blocking a view.
Commissioner Tetreault stated he would rather empower the property owner to say
whether or not they want to give up their view. Therefore, if the view is worth money
and the property owner doesn't care about the view and it diminishes the value of their
property, so be it. He felt that if the City is going to make a change, it should be in
regards to foliage as well as structures being built.
Commissioner Lewis stated that he does not necessarily agree with Commissioner
Leon's interpretation, but did agree that it was appropriate that City Council periodically
weigh in and make sure that staff is appropriately enforcing and interpreting the
Ordinance. He questioned if staff should be proactively going in the field and creating
view disputes or being more passive and waiting for a neighbor to object. He felt that
the first step is to bring this question to the City Attorney and find out if the City Council
even has the power to act on this type of issue without amending the Ordinance. If the
City Attorney feels this is an appropriate area for the City Council to come in and give
staff new direction to be less proactive, the Planning Commission may want to send a
recommendation to the City Council asking them to take a look at this issue.
Director Rojas suggested that the City Attorney could review the tape of this meeting to
understand the Planning Commission's concerns and can respond in terms of
amending the Ordinance and how much leeway there is in terms of the Ordinance.
The Commission agreed to continue this item to a future date to allow staff the
opportunity to obtain feedback from the City Attorney.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
5. Minutes of May 11, 2010
Commissioner Knight moved to approve the minutes as presented, seconded by
Commissioner Lewis. Approved, (6-0-1) with Commissioner Emenhiser
abstaining since he was absent from the meeting.
6. Minutes of May 25, 2010
Commissioner Knight moved to approve the minutes as presented, seconded by
Commissioner Lewis. Approved, (5-0-2) with Commissioner Tetreault and Vice
Chairman Tomblin abstaining since they were absent from the meeting.
ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
7. Pre-Agenda for the meeting of July 13, 2010
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 12
Commissioner Lewis noted that at their last meeting the City Council passed a
Resolution to oppose the Marymount initiative. He would like to agendize on a future
agenda the issue of whether or not the Planning Commission, as a body, should adopt
a position on the Marymount initiative.
The Commission agreed to add this discussion on a future agenda.
ADJOURNMENT
The meeting was adjourned at 10:14 p.m.
Planning Commission Minutes
June 22,2010
Page 13