PC MINS 20050913CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
SEPTEMBER 13, 2005
CALL TO ORDER
Approved
September 11,
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Tetreault at 7:00 p.m. at the Fred Hesse
Community Room, 29301 Hawthorne Boulevard.
FLAG SALUTE
Vice Chairman Knight led the assembly in the Pledge of Allegiance.
ROLL CALL
Present: Commissioners Gerstner, Golida, Karp, Perestam, Vice Chairman Knight,
and Chairman Tetreault. Commissioner Mueller arrived at 8:13 p.m.
Absent: None
Also present were Director of Planning, Building, and Code Enforcement Rojas,
Associate Planner Blumenthal, and Associate Planner Schonborn.
APPROVAL OF AGENDA
Commissioner Perestam suggested moving Agenda Item No. 1 to be heard after
Agenda Items 2 and 3. The Commission unanimously agreed.
COMMUNICATIONS
None
COMMENTS FROM THE AUDIENCE (regarding non -agenda items)
None
PUBLIC HEARINGS
2. Grading Permit (Case No. Zon2002-00596): 6405 Corsini Place
Associate Planner Schonborn presented the staff report explaining the scope of the
project. He stated that during the noticing period two letters of concern were received
by staff, which included concerns regarding view impairment, neighborhood
compatibility, and privacy issues. He explained that staff performed a view analysis and
was able to make all of the necessary findings necessary to approve the Grading
Permit. Therefore staff was recommending approval of the project, as conditioned by
staff.
Commissioner Perestam asked if the Art Jury in Palos Verdes Estates considered the
color of the residence in their analysis of the project.
Associate Planner Schonborn stated that he did not know the parameters involved with
the Art Jury.
Commissioner Perestam asked if the Neighborhood Compatibility Guidelines addressed
the color of a structure.
Associate Planner Schonborn answered that the Guidelines do not consider color of a
residence.
Vice Chairman Knight asked if the residence was in the Miraleste Park District
boundaries, specifically in terms of tree protection and any conflict with the staffs
recommendation to remove the tree.
Director/Secretary Rojas explained that trees on Park District land are exempt, however
this residence is not on Park District land.
Vice Chairman Knight asked if this residence would have a new septic system.
Associate Planner Schonborn answered that a new septic system is proposed for the
new house, although the applicant has indicated they are working with the neighbors for
easements to allow them to hook up to the public sewer.
Vice Chairman Knight asked if there would be any remedial grading on the back slope
of the property.
Associate Planner Schonborn stated that none was proposed on the plans.
Chairman Tetreault asked what the front yard setback was on the existing residence.
Associate Planner Schonborn stated that the front yard setback is currently just under
10 feet, making it legal non -conforming since the residence was built prior to the City's
incorporation. He noted that the applicant was informed that this non -conformity must
be corrected with the new structure.
Chairman Tetreault opened the public hearing.
Henry Cramer 6401 Corsini Place began by questioning why the notice received in
August stated the new residence and garage will be 5,752 square feet, however the
staff report states the residence and garage will only be 5,412. He also questioned
staffs interpretation of viewing area, noting that he felt his viewing area is the detached
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September 13, 2005
Page 2
study. Therefore, this new residence has a major impact on his viewing area. He very
strongly objected to the proposed size of the residence, as it will be much larger than
the others in the neighborhood. He stated that his recommendation for the residence
would be to allow the existing front yard setback or decrease the size of the structure.
Chairman Tetreault closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Karp noted that Dr. Cramer had objected to the size of the house,
however he wondered if he took into account that the house will be two levels plus a
basement. He asked staff what the actual footprint of the house would be.
Associate Planner Schonborn stated that the footprint of the residence would be
approximately 3,048 square feet.
Chairman Tetreault asked staff about the discrepancy in the square footage in the
public notice and the staff report.
Associate Planner Schonborn explained that the public notice did specify a 5,700
square foot structure; however, after publication of the notice, the applicant reduced the
size of the structure to 5,412 square feet, which includes the basement and garage
areas.
Commissioner Karp noted that the average size of homes is increasing throughout
California and he did not think this proposed residence was too large for the
neighborhood, especially when looking at the size of the footprint.
Vice Chairman Knight agreed with the findings in the staff report, noting however that he
does have empathy for Dr. Cramer. He stated that he is always concerned when there
is construction close to a slope, and hoped that all necessary geotechnical and
hydrological studies are done to ensure a safe structure, as well as safety to the
neighbors.
Commissioner Gerstner explained that he tends to look at the size of the house relative
to the appearance of the house from the street as opposed to the numerical
calculations. He stated that in the end, the Planning Commission is more concerned
with how the house will look in the neighborhood and from the street rather than the
actual size. He noted that slightly over 1,000 square feet of this house is contained in a
basement, leaving approximately 4,400 square feet that is visible from the street, which
he felt is a compatible size for the neighborhood. He stated that he too has compassion
for Dr. Cramer losing his view from his office area, however the office area is not a
viewing area as defined in the view ordinance. Therefore, he felt that he was able to
make all of the necessary findings and was in favor of approving the project.
Commissioner Perestam agreed, stating that each project is site specific. He noted that
most of the homes in the neighborhood are a very light color, and asked staff what the
color of this house was proposed to be.
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September 13, 2005
Page 3
Associate Planner Schonborn answered that he did not know what the proposed color
of the house was, and suggested that be a question to the architect.
Chairman Tetreault re -opened the public hearing.
Frank Bostrom (architect) stated that he was a member of the Palos Verdes Art Jury for
24 years and is very aware of their process. He gave a brief explanation of how the Art
Jury operates. He stated that currently the proposed color scheme is smooth stucco
painted white.
Chairman Tetreault closed the public hearing.
Chairman Tetreault stated that he agreed with the staff on issues regarding grading,
privacy, and view impairment. He was concerned, however, with neighborhood
compatibility. He explained that compatibility as viewed from the street was not a
concern to him, however he disagreed with the staff report regarding the rear setback
and its consistency with the neighborhood. He noted that this proposed residence
would be as close to the property line as the neighbor's deck and therefore the house is
not compatible when looking at the hard structure versus the neighbor's deck.
Director/Secretary Rojas explained that more emphasis is placed on the front setback,
as it is more visible. He explained that rear setbacks come into discussion when a
project comes close to a neighboring house in the backyard, noting that the back of this
property opens out into a canyon. Therefore, staff felt that the rear setback was
generally compatible with the neighborhood.
Commissioner Gerstner stated that there are some rather strict restrictions in the Code
regarding how high a deck can be built above grade and asked staff what the limiting
factors would be if someone chose to build a deck on the back of the subject residence.
Associate Planner Schonborn stated that the rear slope is considered to be an extreme
slope, and therefore the applicant would have to apply for an Extreme Slope Permit to
build a deck over the slope. He noted that the limiting factors would be that the deck
could not project more than 6 feet over the extreme slope and the deck cannot be built
over 12 feet in height, measured from where grade and foundation meet to the top of
the handraii.
Chairman Tetreault discussed the deck at Dr. Cramer's home, and noted that if whoever
built the deck had decided to put in landscaping rather than the deck, then there would
be no consideration as to whether there was a consistent setback. He felt that because
Dr. Cramer has a wooden deck in the back, Dr. Cramer is now being penalized because
Neighborhood Compatibility findings are being made. He felt that the proposed project
could be reduced slightly so that it does not protrude so far back on the property.
Planning Commission Minutes
September 13, 2005
Page 4
Commissioner Perestam asked staff to explain the weight of the Development Code in
relation to other documents, such as Neighborhood Compatibility and other supporting
documents to the Development Code.
Associate Planner Schonborn explained that the Development Code is very black and
white, containing minimum standards. He stated that when considering Neighborhood
Compatibility, there are many variations within a neighborhood in terms of setbacks and
heights. Therefore, when walking a particular neighborhood, staff determines if there is
a governing setback, and if there is, how does a particular proposal fit into the
neighborhood. He stated that staff is looking to see if the appearance of the new
structure disrupts the flow of a neighborhood.
Director/Secretary Rojas added that the Development Code is strict, and that
neighborhood compatibility is completely subjective.
Vice Chairman Knight asked the Chairman to clarify his concern regarding the rear
setback.
Chairman Tetreault explained that, excluding the deck, the houses on the street pretty
much line up along the rear, and the proposed residence will protrude out in the back
and deviate from the other homes on the street. He explained that he would like to
reduce the depth of the structure so that it does not go into the backyard as far as
proposed. He stated that this might be accomplished by a reduction in square footage,
as well as possibly moving the house up on the property. He acknowledged moving the
structure forward towards the street could require another application.
Commissioner Karp noted that changing the front setback will limit guest parking, and
there is currently very little parking on the street.
Chairman Tetreault noted that currently there are four cars parked in front of the
residence, all off of the street. He felt that reducing the proposed front yard setback
would not impact the off street parking in the neighborhood.
Commissioner Karp moved to adopt P.C. Resolution 2005-40 thereby approving
the Grading Permit as recommended by staff, seconded by Commissioner
Gerstner. Approved, (5-1) with Chairman Tetreault dissenting.
3. Revision to Conditional Use Permit & Sign Permit (Case No. ZON2005-
00316): 28103 Hawthorne Boulevard
Commissioner Mueller arrived at 8:13 p.m.
Associate Planner Schonborn presented the staff report, explaining the application was
a request for a revision to the sign program through the conditional use permit revision,
to allow for a change in the signage and appearance of the service station/convenience
store building and canopy. He stated that staff has concerns with the color scheme
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September 13, 2005
Page 5
proposed for the building and the upgrade of the existing canopy. He stated that staff
was concerned these changes would detract from a more residential type of
construction. He explained that the original intent of the Conditional Use Permit was to
keep the residential feeling of the commercial site. Therefore, staff was recommending
approval of the modifications as stipulated in the Resolution, which exclude the
modifications to the canopy and the color scheme of the building and fascia.
Commissioner Karp noted that the parking lot needs to be slurry sealed and that there
are bricks missing from the planters that should be replaced, and asked if these could
be included in the conditions of approval.
Associate Planner Schonborn answered that this application is specifically for signage
and therefore other conditions not related to signage could not be included.
Vice Chairman Knight noted a discrepancy between the Resolution and Conditions of
Approval regarding the color of the walls of the structure.
Associate Planner Schonborn agreed, noting that staff will clarify the condition of
approval.
Commissioner Perestam complimented staff for taking an aggressive stand to make
sure this small commercial area in the middle of a residential area does not impact the
surrounding neighborhood, and supported the recommendations made by staff.
Commissioner Gerstner asked staff if there is a minimum clearance height under the
canopy. He explained that he likes the tile as it relates to the residential character of the
neighborhood, and does not object to the teal color. He felt that if one could still see the
tile roof and the sign fascia was below the tile roof, he would not be as uncomfortable
with it. He noted that this would limit the size of the sign or would restrict the clearance
underneath.
Associate Planner Schonborn stated that staff was not aware of the restrictions or limits
regarding the height under the canopy.
Commissioner Gerstner noted that this would also control the light that comes out of the
canopy and keep the light more focused downward.
Director/Secretary Rojas explained that when the City was reviewing the issue of the
canopy for the Chevron car wash there was much controversy over the canopy. He
stated that at that time the City Attorney determined that the canopy should not be lower
than a standard that was set at the time, therefore he felt it would be very difficult to
lower this canopy.
There being no speakers, Chairman Tetreault opened and closed the public
hearing.
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September 13, 2005
Page 6
Commissioner Karp felt that the colors at the station should be as subtle as possible
and recommended earth tone colors be used, rather than the yellow, green, and teal.
Commissioner Mueller stated that he was on the Planning Commission when the last
revision was suggested in terms of signage, and the concern has always been the
amount of signage on the property. He was pleased that some of the signage would be
removed with this application. He felt the current proposal goes beyond the current
character of the gas station, and asked staff if they had received any alternate
proposals from the applicant.
Associate Planner Schonborn answered that there have been no alternate proposals
discussed, adding that the applicant has known staffs position on the current proposal
even before they formally submitted the application to the City.
Vice Chairman Knight agreed with staffs opinion that the tile roof and parapet, as well
as lighter colors are appropriate. He recommended that included in the motion, that
Condition 0 be modified where it reads that no painting is allowed on the existing fascia,
"or walls" be added.
Director/Secretary Rojas stated that language could be added that states any painting
of the fascia or walls shall be subject to the review of the Director.
Vice Chairman Knight moved to adopt P.C. Resolution 2005-41 thereby approving
the revision to the Conditional Use Permit, as recommended by staff with the
added language that the walls not have the Valero color scheme, and any paining
of the fascia or walls be subject to the review of the Director, seconded by
Commissioner Karp. Approved, (7-0).
RECESS AND RECONVENE
At 8:35 the Planning Commission took a short recess until 8:45, at which time they
reconvened.
CONTINUED BUSINESS
1. Code Amendment (Case No. ZON2004-00265)
Vice Chairman Knight recused himself from the hearing, as he lives in the Portuguese
Bend area.
Associate Planner Blumenthal presented the staff report, explaining staff has
reformatted the regulations as requested by the Planning Commission, which includes a
better definition of short term and long term use of cargo containers, and the use of
cargo containers in the landslide moratorium area. He noted that staff included
language in the draft Resolution that recommends the City Council amend the
Moratorium and Building Code in a manner that can accommodate the use of cargo
containers within the Portuguese Bend area for long-term storage beyond the one-year
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September 13, 2005
Page 7
requirement without the use of a foundation. Therefore, staff was recommending the
Planning Commission adopt the proposed Resolution to recommend language to the
City Council.
Commissioner Mueller asked if the current language allows for a cargo container on a
vacant piece of property.
Associate Planner Blumenthal noted that under short term uses a cargo container could
theoretically be approved, subject to the approval of a Special Use Permit. He noted
that in the Portuguese Bend area, cargo containers are limited to developed lots. He
also stated that cargo containers could be approved in Commercial or Institutional
zones subject to a Conditional Use Permit application.
Commissioner Perestam asked how the City would handle a replacement container, in
the event a permitted container fails for whatever reason.
Associate Planner Blumenthal answered that when referring to long-term uses in such
cases, the City would determine whether the new container would comply with Code
requirements. He stated that if the original container was non -conforming there is a 50
percent replacement value that is allowed, where one can replace a non -conforming
structure provided the cost of replacement does not exceed 50 percent of the total
replacement value.
Commissioner Golida referred to Exhibit A page 1, and asked if a request for a cargo
container for short time use is an application made to the Director.
Associate Planner Blumenthal answered that the request for a short-term use of a cargo
container is a Director decision, however the appeal of his decision does go before the
Planning Commission.
Chairman Tetreault questioned the wording in Exhibit A, which states that the Planning
Commission is recommending to the City Council that the Landslide Moratorium
Ordinance be amended to exempt cargo containers from the 600 square foot size
limitation. He did not remember the Planning Commission agreeing on this exemption.
Director/Secretary Rojas explained that the long term use of a cargo container will count
towards the 600 square foot limit in the moratorium area and it was staffs
understanding, based on previous discussions at the Planning Commission meetings,
that the Planning Commission wanted to give these residents an additional opportunity
for storage space. He stated that if the size of the cargo container counts towards the
600 square foot limit, no additional space is actually being given unless the Pianning
Commission recommends that the City Council amend the Moratorium Ordinance to
exempt cargo containers in the Portuguese Bend area from counting towards the 600
square foot limitation.
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September 13, 2005
Page 8
Commissioner Mueller was concerned that if a cargo container is used as an alternate
foundation, would that then give the owner the right to add more foundation that is
exempt from the 600 square feet.
Associate Planner Blumenthal suggested changing the language to say that when cargo
containers are exempt from the Ordinance when used for storage rather than a
foundation.
Commissioner Gerstner noted that the first house allowed to use a cargo container as a
foundation system is using this cargo container as an occupied portion of the house.
He stated that they are living in the cargo containers and there is more house on top of
the containers. He did not feel that there are any others in the Portuguese Bend area
who are proposing to use cargo containers as a foundation. He also recalled
discussions regarding the 600 square foot limitation, specifically discussions centering
around allowing two cargo containers and realizing that two containers would exceed
the 600 square foot limitation.
Chairman Tetreault also recalled that discussion. He stated that he was not in favor of
giving any exemptions to the existing moratorium limitation of 600 square feet. He felt
the purpose of the cargo container was to allow residents in the Portuguese Bend area
a place for storage, as it is not possible to build anything on the property because of
movement. He did not think this should be a way to allow these residents to get extra
square footage, only a way to accommodate them from having to build a structure. He
stated that if it weren't for the moratorium the City would not allow cargo containers and
require the resident to build something that is architecturally consistent with the
neighborhood.
Commissioner Gerstner agreed, adding that he would not be in favor of amending the
moratorium and the amount of square footage allowed.
There being no speakers, Chairman Tetreault opened and closed the public
hearing.
Commissioner Gerstner moved to adopt P.C. Resolution 2005-42 thereby
approving the draft language, as amended to strike the last sentence on page 2,
section 5 which states the Planning Commission further recommends the City
Council amend the Landslide Moratorium Ordinance to exempt cargo containers
from the 600 square foot size limitation and forward the recommendation to the
City Council, seconded by Commissioner Perestam.
Commissioner Mueller stated that he was inclined not to support the motion, as he was
not in favor of encouraging the use of cargo containers in the City. He felt that by
allowing the use of cargo containers in certain areas of the City it appears it will be
creeping into other areas of the City. He noted that the City has a lot of authority in
approving the containers on their own property, and did not see the need for cargo
containers on City, commercial, or industrial areas for long term use. He did not think
Planning Commission Minutes
September 13, 2005
Page 9
that the use of cargo containers was in the best interest of the City and did not believe
there is any other City that allows this type of use of cargo containers. He felt that if the
City is worried about neighborhood compatibility and the color to paint a gas station, it
should certainly be worried about this use of cargo containers.
Chairman Tetreault asked staff how this current Resolution would change the use of
cargo containers in the City.
Associate Planner Blumenthal answered that the short-term temporary storage use of
cargo containers in the City would be as currently practiced by staff, with the exception
of the emergency use. He stated that currently the City does not allow the long-term
use of cargo containers for commercial, institutional, or open space zones.
Director/Secretary Rojas noted, however, that the Code is silent on the use of cargo
containers and the practice the City is currently using is to address the containers is on
an as -needed basis.
Commissioner Golida made a recommendation to the author of the current motion to
reconsider the motion to strike Section B1 from the draft Resolution page 3. He
explained that he was struggling with the necessity for opening the door for any use that
he does not feel is necessary. He felt the City is wise enough in its own discretion to
make its decisions in regards to where cargo containers can be used on City owned
property.
Commissioner Gerstner had no objection to amending his original motion to strike item
131, page 3 of 13, as did Commissioner Perestam.
Director/Secretary Rojas explained the when it comes to City property the City Council
and the City Manager make the decisions on the use of that property. He stated that
Section B1 was added so that it would not affect the ability for the City Manager to deal
with City properties in the way that he needs to for City purposes while being very
responsive to citizen concerns.
Commissioner Perestam made a recommendation to also strike the word "permanent"
in C1, page 2 and C1, page 4.
Commissioner Gerstner agreed to further amend his motion by striking the word
"permanent" from C1 in both documents, seconded by Commissioner Perestam.
Associate Planner Blumenthal noted that with these deletions staff will also delete
sections 12, 13,14, 15, 16, and 17 of the Resolution for consistency.
Commissioner Gerstner amended' his motion to delete sections 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, and
17 from the Resolution for consistency, seconded by Commissioner Perestam.
Planning Commission Minutes
September 13, 2005
Page 10
Commissioner Mueller asked staff how the removal of the word permanent would affect
the City approvals of long-term storage containers in the moratorium area.
Associate Planner Blumenthal answered that long term storage in the Portuguese Bend
area would require the approval of a Moratorium Exception Permit, Planning
Department approval for the location of the container, and Building Department
approval for the container. He noted that if the City Council adopts the recommended
changes to the Building Code, all the steps are there however the Building Official can
approve the cargo container without the permanent foundation.
The motion to adopt P.C. Resolution 2005-42 to approve the draft Resolution as
amended was approved, (6-0-1) with Vice Chairman Knight abstaining.
NEW BUSINESS
4. General Plan Annual Report
Director/Secretary Rojas presented the staff report, explaining this is an annual
procedural item where the City reports to the State know how the General Plan has
been implemented. He explained that this report is presented to the Planning
Commission, who then forwards it to the City Council, who then forwards it to the State.
The Commission discussed the annual report and approved the report, via minute
order, (7-0).
5. Joint Planning Commission / City Council meeting — discussion topics
Director/Secretary Rojas presented the staff report, explaining that on October 22nd
there will be a joint meeting of the Planning Commission and City Council and that the
Planning Commission had previously agreed that one topic of discussion should be
neighborhood compatibility. He asked the Commission if there were other topics of
discussion they would like to add at this time to be included on the Agenda.
Vice Chairman Knight felt that a discussion on cumulative view impact and the
appropriate findings would be a helpful.
Chairman Tetreault agreed, adding that there was a recent appeal before the City
Council where cumulative view impact was an issue, and he felt that a discussion
between the City Council and Planning Commission regarding that issue would be
helpful.
The Commission unanimously agreed this should be a topic of discussion.
Commissioner Karp stated that he would like to have a discussion regarding advising
applicants for permits to check recorded deed restrictions and other restrictions on the
property, as well as with the Homeowners Association. He felt that having an approval
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September 13, 2005
Page 1 1
from the City or Planning Commission may give a homeowner a false sense of security
if what they are proposing is prohibited by deed restriction or the HOA. He understood
the concept that the City does not enforce private contracts, however he felt it was
important to call to the applicant's attention that they should view this before going too
far into the application process.
Commissioner Mueller noted that many of the larger projects are being streamlined
directly to the City Council and avoiding the Planning Commission and felt that a
discussion with the City Council would be beneficial for the Planning Commission to
better understand their role in future large development projects.
Director/Secretary Rojas clarified that there is no fast tracking of projects to the City
Council, as the Development Code dictates what must go before the Planning
Commission. He explained that revisions to the larger projects must go before the last
body that reviewed the project, which in the case of the larger projects like Trump
National and the Long Point Hotel project, is the City Council. He also noted that there
are many larger projects coming up, such as General Plan amendments and the
Marymount College project, that will have to be reviewed by the Planning Commission.
Commissioner Mueller felt that was a good explanation, but stated he would like to hear
the City Council reaffirm that position.
Vice Chairman Knight felt that a discussion with the City Council on Conditional Use
Permit revisions would be helpful, in that some projects may have so many revisions
that they may are no longer close to the concept that was originally approved.
Commissioner Perestam suggested a discussion on the role of the Planning
Commission in a matter that is on appeal to the City Council.
Director/Secretary Rojas felt these were all good topics to bring up at the meeting and
made note of them.
APPROVAL OF MINUTES
6. Approval of August 9. 2005 and August 23, 2005
Director/Secretary Rojas noted that the minutes will be available at the next meeting.
ITEMS TO BE PLACED ON FUTURE AGENDAS
7. Pre -agenda for the meetingf September 27, 2005
Commissioner Karp noted that there is only one item scheduled for the September 27th
meeting and questioned the need for a meeting with only one item on the Agenda.
Planning Commission Minutes
September 13, 2005
Page 12
After a brief discussion the Planning Commission unanimously chose to not have a
meeting September 27th, making the next meeting of the Planning Commission October
11, 2005
ADJOURNMENT
At 10:35 the meeting was adjourned to October 11, 2005.
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