CC MINS 19880418 JNTM I N U T E S
CITY OF RANCHO PALOS VERDES
CITY COUNCIL AND PLANNING COMMISSION
JOINT WORK SESSION
APRIL 18, 1988
The joint work session of the City Council and Planning
Commission was called to order at 7:30 P.M. by Mayor Ryan
and vice-Chairman McNulty, at Hesse Park Community Center,
29301 Hawthorne Boulevard in said City, notice having-been
given with affidavit thereto on file.
0
CITY COUNCIL ROLL CALL.
PRESENT: BACHARACH, HINCHLIFFE., HUGHES, McTAGGART AND
MAYOR RYAN
ABSENT., ..NONE
PLANNING COMMISSION ROLL CALL
PRESENT: ORTOLANO, VON HAGEN,
MCNULTY
ABSENT: CHAIRMAN CONNOLLY
WIKE, AND VICE CHAIRMAN
Also present were City Manager Dennis McDuffie, Environmental
Services Director Robert Benard, and City Attorney Steve
Dorsey..
HEIGHT VARIATION WORKSHOP
Mayor Ryan opened the work session for discussion.
Commissioner McNulty said an issue of major concern is
whether or not consideration should be given to a potential
view from a home if existing trees currently obstructing such
view were removed. He said, if trees. are not, considered and
the height variation is granted, the City may be replacing a
temporary view blockage from trees (which nay someday be
trl*mmed -.or removed) with a permanent view blockage � f rom a
structure.
Environmental Services Director Benard said that height
variations are often-, conditioned with the removal -of trees if
the view - obstructing trees are located on the applicant's
property-4. He referred to- a.current.case where a number of
trees on the property impair the view-from the public right-
of-way and from residences. He said that project is being
conditioned with the removal of existing trees and with a
limit on any new plantings there.
City Attorney Dorsey said that was a reasonable approach,
assuming it can be determined that there would be a view if
there were no trees. He said in that case, a second story
addition, because of the removal of trees, would actually
improve the situation.
Mayor Ryan asked about the possibility of an ordinance
stipulating that all trees planted after a specific effective
date not block views, and he wondered if the City could also
limit the height of existing trees.
Councilmember Hughes asked about amortizing the life of
existing trees.
City Attorney Dorsey was not sure about how to apply the
amortization theory to trees. He said the City would need
evidence of height and that one method would be for the
person worried about view impairment to pay for staff to take
inventory of the trees. He said from a legal standpoint,
Council has the authority to set an absolute height limit on
trees and establish a time limit for bringing over-height
trees into compliance, but thought it would be very difficult
to apply such a law. He said another alternative, which
might create fewer problems, would be to require thinning the
trees rather than topping, which often kills the trees, or
removal.
Environmental Services Director Benard said if foliage grows
together to block view and passage, it is dealt with as a
wall any may not exceed six feet in height. He said foliage
higher than six feet must be thinned to allow the passage of
light, air and visibility, etc.
Councilmember Hughes did not think it would be practical to
do an inventory of existing trees and noted that some types
of trees do not survive lacing.
Councilmember McTaggart said trees become more valuable as
they get older and they create oxygen.
Mayor Ryan asked if the current Code would permit denial of a
height variation on the basis that the structure would
obstruct a view if existing trees, which are currently
blocking the view, were not there.
City Attorney Dorsey said the City does not have that
jurisdiction under the current law and was concerned that
changing the Code might make decisions more subject to being
overturned in a court of law.
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Mayor Ryan asked about the possibility of requiring,
from property owners who want their views protected and who
object to a neighbor's height variation, a deed restriction
or agreement that they will in turn protect the views of
others.
City Attorney Dorsey said that was a novel approach and did
not know if it had ever been tried before. one of his
concerns was that it would result in interlocking agreements
between several property owners.
Councilwoman Bacharach said it was not reasonable for the
City to inventory all the trees, and was concerned about
having,too-much government involvement by trying to solve
problems between neighbors,
In response to questions by Councilmember Hinchliffe, City
Attorney.Dorsey said there are several ordinances which allow
the, City to . go. onto other people's property on zoning- matters
and that there may be a way to properly handle trees without
conflicting with privacy or personal property rights. He
said there is..currently,.no law that prohibits ,view.
obstruction from, trees and noted. that the. pending initiative
does not:-- address it., .- __ - . .,
Councilmember Hinchliffe said he agreed with Mayor Ryan's
idea regarding an,agreement or. deed restriction but also
agreed with.Councilwoman Bacharach's concern about the role
of - government- with, regard.. to third. parties.. He said it was
not realistic to develop an- ordinance to go onto a third
party� s property.
Mayor Ryan referred.to drawings he had on display showing two
examples. of,how.the protection of views with a 16-foot
envelope-As not always fair,, The first drawing depicted a
home -which. by,.law could_ not be granted a height variation (to
obtain.a view) because it,would,..obstruct the view from the
first floor of a two - story - behind it, which has. a view
from both floors. The other drawing would permit a height
variation which would obstruct the view-from the home behind
it because said view is from.. the,. second f loor... - and the Code
protects only those views.within.the 16-,foot height limit.
Commissioner Ortolano said there are a number- of homes on the
east side which were originally built to have a second-story
view. she said although.the current.Code,is clear-and easy
to support.-it is-not always equitable.
City Attorney Dorsey said;the -policy -has been to consider
views from the primary living area, not bedrooms or- kitchens,
etc. He said the existing Code is easy to defend and that
zoning , regulations. must be.applied.uniformly in order , to. .
avoid creating special -rights.
He.expressed concern about
3 APRIL 18, 1988
tryl*ng_to tailor the ordinance to handle individual'
situations and referred to a' recent court case involving the
City of-Downey,,
Environmental Services Director Benard pointed out that the
designation of a room may convert, without physical change,
from a bedroom to a den. He also said that any portion of a
house constructed with a variance does not count as principal
viewing area.
Councilmember McTaggart noted that a lot does not have to
have a home on it to have its view protected.
commissioner McNulty thought they should address upside down
homes--those constructed with the living area on the top
floor.
Commissioner Von Hagen said it might be appropriate to
consider an overly to deal with the homes on the north and
east side of the City.
Councilmember Hinchliffe asked if there was any language
that would give some discretionary power to the Planning
Commission and staff when dealing with height variations,
city Attorney Dorsey said there is already some discretion
with regard to principal identifiable view and that the
determination of principal viewing area is left to the
Environmental Services Director. He said it appears that the
problems lie with upside down houses and the fact that the
Code offers no protection for views above 16 feet. From a
legal standpoint, he thought it might be possible to deal
with the problem by establishing overlay districts on a
tract-by-tract basis . He said the City was trying to balance
the right to build a two-story house against the right to
have a view. He said while the City cannot prohibit someone
from reasonable use of their property, it can have a view
ordinance to protect significant views,
Commissioner Wike said in some cases there is view
impairment, which could be eliminated by redesigning or
relocating the structure, but that unless the view is
determined to be significant, such conditions cannot be
imposed on the project.
Councilmember Hughes said it is impossible to protect every
view and that the City must strike a balance between what is
and what is not realistic. He pointed out that no matter
what ordinance is drafted, there will always be cases where
it does not fit.
Councilwoman Bacharach brought up the issue of blocking the
sun from solar panels. She said people should be encouraged
MM4- APRIL 18, 1988
to use all the resources at hand and there should be some
protection in that area,
City Attorney Dorsey said there is no private right to
prohibit shade from solar panels. He said the State Law does
offer protection to some degree but did not know if cities
could regulate beyond that. He said he would check on it.
With regard to the notification period, Environmental
Services Director Benard said the majority of discretionary
permits requires 15 days and the change from 10 days to 15
days for height variations would make it consistent.
ADJOURNMENT
By motion of Councilmember Hughes, seconded by Counci lmember
Hinchliffe, the City Council adjourned at 10:13 P.M. to April
19, 1988, at 7:30 P.M.
By motion of Commissioner Von Hagen, seconded by Commissioner
Wike, the Planning Commission adjourned at
10-013 P.M. to April 26, 1988, at 7:30 P.M.
ATTEST:
City Clerk
. I
I
ayor
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