CC MINS 20020520 ADJ MINUTES
RANCHO PALOS VERDES CITY COUNCIL
ADJOURNED REGULAR MEETING
MAY 20, 2002
The meeting was called to order at 7:05 P.M. by Mayor McTaggart at Fred Hesse
Community Park, 29301 Hawthorne Boulevard.
Following the Pledge of Allegiance, led by Councilman Clark, roll call was
answered as follows:
PRESENT: Clark, Ferraro (arrived during closed session)
Gardiner, Stern, and Mayor McTaggart
ABSENT: None
Also present were City Manager Les Evans, City Attorney Carol Lynch, Director
of Public Works Dean Allison, City Clerk/Administrative Services Director Jo
Purcell, and Recording Secretary Denise Bothe.
APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
Mayor pro tem Stern moved, seconded by Councilman Gardiner, to approve the
Agenda as submitted. Motion carried (Councilwoman Ferraro had not yet
arrived).
RECESS TO CLOSED SESSION:
The meeting was recessed at 7:07 P.M. to a closed session per the Brown Act
Checklist.
RECONVENE:
At 7:25 P.M. the meeting reconvened.
CLOSED SESSION REPORT:
City Attorney Lynch reported that no action had been taken.
REGULAR BUSINESS:
Review of Geologic and Geotechnical Data for Zone 2 (1801)
City Manager Evans presented staff report (of record) of May 20, 2002, and
staff's recommendation to:
A) Accept the conclusions of the Cotton, Shires & Associates January 14,
2002, Technical Review that:
1. There is insufficient subsurface information to properly characterize
either the depth to the base of landsliding, strength properties of
the landslide materials, or the ground water levels. Without these
data, no accurate slope stability analysis can be undertaken, no
reliable factor of safety can be calculated and no dependable
landslide mitigation scheme can be designed.
2. One cannot quantitatively determine the factor of safety and,
therefore, cannot judge the level of risk of development in the
prehistoric landslide area.
3. The factor of safety of the landslide mass that underlies Zone 2 is
above 1.00, but likely less than the industry's standard safety
threshold of 1.50.
B) Continue to deny requests for development permits for new homes in the
Zone 2 area of the Portuguese Bend landslide based on the current lack
of evidence that the subject land has a factor of safety of 1.5 or greater,
unless an applicant submits a complete Landslide Moratorium Exclusion
application that is supported by adequate geologic data.
City Manager Evans provided a brief history of the landslide areas in the Abalone
Cove/Portuguese Bend landslide area; stated that the landslide was first
discovered in 1974; that by 1978, it became clear that it was a serious problem,
which prompted the City Council to adopt a building moratorium on September 5,
1978, for the Abalone Cove area. He commented on the installation of wells to
remove ground water and other internal improvements to divert water out of the
landslide area; and noted that there is no evidence of any significant movement
in the area of the Abalone landslide after approximately 1985 and no record of
any appreciable movement in the Zone 2 area of the Abalone Cove landslide.
Highlighting Dr. Ehlig's May 1993 memorandum to the City, he explained that Dr.
Ehlig had divided the Abalone Cove landslide into 8 zones, describing the
geological characteristics of each zone and a scenario under which the
properties in these zones could be developed. He explained that it wasn't until
February 21, 1995, that the City Council actually approved the appropriation for
the environmental documents to consider a Zone 2 landslide exception project.
City Manager Evans stated that in early 2000, Jack Monks wrote a letter to the
City to again address the Zone 2 issues; advised that the City Council had
City Council Minutes
May 20, 2002
Page 2 of 8
agreed to do so and, therefore, hired Cotton, Shires & Associates to study the
existing data relating to in and around Zone 2 and to advise the City on various
issues, including whether or not it would be advisable to allow building on the
vacant lots in Zone 2.
Bill Cotton presented the results of his company's study; advised that he was
hired to collect all the geologic/geotechnical data that pertains to the Zone 2
Abalone Cove and the Zone 1 area immediately surrounding the Abalone Cove
landslide and to evaluate that data and see if that data was of sufficient technical
merit to come to some reasonable conclusion about the stability of the landslide
and the area that underlies Zone 2. Mr. Cotton stated that the data was
collected from a variety of sources; stated that he researched 20 to 30 different
references -- expressing his belief that he had collected all data that is available
in order to judge how sound the data is. With the aid of slides, he highlighted the
areas that had been addressed. Mr. Cotton stated that he concluded the
existing data is insufficient to make a declarative statement about the long-term
stability of the landslide as far as the standard of care in the industry to compute
a factor of safety that would be recognized as being safe for development;
explained that the level of risk is unknown, that the subsurface conditions are
unknown and, therefore, he could not arrive at a level of risk.
Mr. Cotton stated that he also concluded that the building of several homes is
not likely to cause enough aggravation to affect the landslide area; and explained
that with a certain amount of restriction, just by constructing homes on the
landslide is probably not likely to cause enough aggravation on the landslide to
cause the landslide to move.
With the aid of a slide presentation, Mr. Cotton highlighted the various areas of
the Abalone Cove area and Portuguese Bend area; stated that as you get down
into the Abalone Cove landslide, you begin to see a repeated pattern to indicate
a small displacement, about 4/10ths of an inch in movement -- a slow pattern
which suggests that all the bore hole stations are moving towards the ocean, an
active landslide that continues to creep. He stated that in Zone 2, there are
some similar situations where things are moving down at the head of the
landslide, that displacement is heading towards the ocean.
Highlighting the water well data, Mr. Cotton stated that he found that a lot of the
water had been pumped out of the ground, which is a critical criterion for the
long-term stability of the landslide.
Mr. Cotton stated for Mayor pro tem Stern that the accepted geotechnical
standard is to look for a 1.5 factor of safety; explained that the lots could be
developed without further destabilizing the large regional landslide, but confirmed
that that's not a standard that has been adopted by any standard-setting agency.
City Council Minutes
May 20, 2002
Page 3of8
Mr. Cotton explained for Councilman Gardiner that the underlying landslide
encompasses everything inside the larger boundary line as shown on the map of
the Portuguese Bend Landslide Building Moratorium Area; stated that he does
not know enough about this underlying landslide to make any comments about
the subsurface being segmented or similar to various parcels within this zone.
He confirmed that Zone 2 has one bore hole; that Zone 5 has two bore holes;
and that Zone 1 has one bore hole and that they are deep enough to provide
valuable information. Mr. Cotton reiterated his belief that building a house in
this area, under certain controlled conditions, would not cause an aggravation to
the larger Zone 2 region, would not cause it to be destabilized; and that it's
reasonable to suggest that the stability in the landslide 2 region isn't so critical at
that point where a house would destabilize it by itself, but pointed out once again
that the risk is unknown.
Responding to Councilman Clark's inquiry, Mr. Cotton stated that at this point,
there isn't enough subsurface data to determine a building safety factor; and that
it's clear there is no way to ascertain a building safety factor of 1.5, which is the
standard for building in the gross landslide area.
Because a 1.5 factor cannot be reached at this point, Councilman Clark noted
his concern with the Cotton report reflecting that it potentially would be okay to
build in Zone 2, even under tight conditions.
Responding to Councilman Clark's comment, Mr. Cotton explained that it is a
policy issue; that the level of risk is unknown, whether the risk is high or low; and
that in his qualitative judgment, one house will most likely not destabilize the
landslide. Mr. Cotton explained that he knows the factor of safety is above 1.00,
that it is somewhere in between 1.00 and 1.5; and that from what he has seen in
the Abalone Cove landslide itself, he would surmise that it probably hovers
around 1.00. He explained that the land above this area will be a higher figure or
else you wouldn't see evidence of it moving.
Mr. Cotton explained for Mayor .McTaggart that it would be expensive to
investigate and determine what the factor of safety is in Zone 2; that it would
require a great deal of sub-surface analysis to try to ferret out different parts of
the landslide; that a drilling program would have to be developed; and that
ground water and soil information would need to be obtained.
Mr. Cotton explained for Mayor McTaggart that exploratory holes could be used
for extraction if they were designed for that purpose; that in determining the
depth of the slide plane and the strength of materials, you'd probably run into
water; and that the ultimate benefit would be to be able to extract water from that
exploratory well or use it for monitoring the water level.
By way of a Power Point presentation, Mayor pro tem Stern addressed what he
believes are appropriate determinations for this City Council to make based upon
City Council Minutes
May 20, 2002
Page 4 of 8
what has been heard and presented in regard to this matter. He highlighted the
following facts: that the accepted geotechnical standard is 1.5; that there's no
recognized standard "to not further destabilize;" that the conclusions that the lots
could be developed is not based on any recognized geotechnical standard; that
the level of risk is unknown; and that there's inadequate backup data from Dr.
Ehlig's 1993 recommendations. He pointed out that what is known is that some
of the work that has gone on was designed to mitigate the impacts, particularly
dewatering, sewers, yet the Cotton report points out there's been no
quantification of those mitigation measures. Lastly, he stated that the
predictability of a future landslide is unclear.
Mayor pro tem Stern asked the City Council to make a determination that it find
that the accepted geotechnical standard is a 1.5, noting that this is common in
the geotechnical profession; that no recognized geological agency or standard-
setting body has adopted a standard whether the development of the property
"would further destabilize;" that the conclusion is not based upon the stability of
the underlying geology, a conclusion that it "wouldn't further destabilize;" that the
level of risk is presently unknown; that the decision is a policy decision based
upon the City's willingness to accept the unknown level of risk; that Dr. Ehlig's
report lacks certain data or no quantification of the mitigation measures; and that
there exists a fallacy in the conclusion that because of the age of this prehistoric
landslide, that it is somehow stable. He noted his conclusion that the City should
require that the development comply with the established standard of 1.5; that
the City should not apply a standard which merely seeks to determine if the
proposed development "will further destabilize;" and that the City should continue
to follow a policy that would protect individuals who would inhabit structures built
in Zone 2, not just be concerned about the impact of the development upon
others.
Joan Kelly, 6 Fruit Tree Road, Zone 2, urged the City to continue its building
moratorium in the Zone 2 area; and questioned if earthquakes are taken into
consideration when making a determination.
Mr. Cotton noted for Ms. Kelly that yes, seismic issues are taken into
consideration when determining slope stability.
Tim Kelly, 6 Fruit Tree Road, noted his objection to building any structure on any
land less than a 1.5 stability factor.
Joe Gallagher, 9 Ginger Root Lane RPV, asked that his e-mail letter of May 17th
the City Council be entered into the record, noting that he recommends against
the development of new homes in Zone 2. (This e-mail is on file with the City
Clerk's Office.)
City Council Minutes
May 20, 2002
Page 5of8
Bob Halderman, 88 Narcissa Drive, RPV, urged the City to maintain the existing
building moratorium until such time that a determination can be made that the
factor of 1.5 has been reached.
John Monks, 107 Aspen Way, RHE, stated that the geologist and soils engineer
he hired to investigate his 3 lots in Zone 2 came to the absolute conclusion that
his properties exceed the 1.5 stability factor; that a determination had been
made that building a house on his properties will have no destabilizing effect on
his land or any land adjacent to it; and commented on his understanding that the
Cotton report indicates that building on his property would not destabilize the
hillside or do any harm to anyone.
Lois Larue, 3136 Barkentine Road, upper Abalone Cove, noted her concurrence
with Mr. Cotton's conclusion.
Denise who resides at 42 Oceanaire Drive, supported the City maintaining a 1.5
standard for building in a known landslide area.
Monte Ray, geologist, cautioned the City that engineers make subjective
judgments to be used in their calculations for the 1.5 factor of safety; explained
that there may be a valid reason to look at ways that the City can go on
developing in this area as it has a need to, taking other considerations into
account. He noted the expense the City will incur if it decides to do this
additional investigation; and expressed his belief that the final study will never
yield a 1.5 factor of safety in this zone. He stated that there might be ways to do
some building in this zone, that there are ways to do it in a relatively safe
manner. He concurred with Mr. Cotton's statement that the level of risk is
unknown in this zone.
In response to Councilwoman Ferraro's inquiry, Mr. Ray explained that pumping
ground water out of this zone has slowed the movement over the years; stated
that there are structural design measures that one can use to combat the effects
of land sliding if it were to occur.
Councilwoman Ferraro questioned what should be concluded from the extensive
studies done on Mr. Monk's 3 lots that indicate stability of 1.5.
Responding to Councilwoman Ferraro's inquiry, Mr. Cotton explained that there
are two different tests: one is for local stability, stating that that was part of the
language -- that if, there were going to be development on individual lots, they
had to demonstrate that there would be local stability of 1.5. He noted that one
could do that if one were on a slope, to come up with values for local geologic
conditions. He pointed out that that situation only applies to building sites; and
stated that that is totally different than what he is addressing in his report, which
is the underlying stability of the larger mass. He added that one could probably
demonstrate that there is local stability on one of those sites, but that the whole
City Council Minutes
May 20, 2002
Page 6 of 8
mass is moving; and that it doesn't address the deep, underlying landslide mass
and how it may come about in the future.
Mayor pro tem Stern stated that it is important for the City Council to start setting
standards; explained that he sees no reason to deviate from the accepted
standard of 1.5 -- pointing out that there are valid concerns for the stability of
whatever structure is placed there for the current resident and any future
resident; and advised that he would not support a change at the present time
given the unknown level of risk.
Mayor pro tem Stern moved, seconded by Councilman Gardiner, to concur with
staff's recommendation and moved to include the 7 additional findings he
presented during his Power Point Presentation.
Councilman Clark echoed Mayor pro tem Stern' position; and stated that in light
of the information presented, it would be prudent for this City to reject any
building construction in the moratorium area.
City Attorney Lynch suggested that with respect to Mayor pro tem Stern's
suggestion Nos. 3 and 4, that we add the proviso in the conclusion noted in
Cotton January 2002 report, add the words "undeveloped lots"; and the same
type of change in No. 4, geologically, the level of risk of development of
undeveloped lots in Zone 2 presently is unknown, the decision to allow new
residential development in that area given the unknown level of risk is a policy
decision which must be made by the City Council.
Councilman Gardiner expressed his belief that the potential for risk could
negatively impact the taxpayers of the City.
Councilman Clark pointed out that it is very clear in the Cotton report that Dr.
Ehlig did not base his recommendations on specific geotechnical analysis and
that it is his belief that therein lies the weakness in those recommendations; and
stated that some of the more recent data calls into question some of those
assumptions that were made several years ago.
Hearing no objection to the motion, it was so ordered by Mayor McTaggart.
PUBLIC COMMENTS:
Cathy Snell, 8 Vanderlip Drive, stated that due to the City Council's vote to
continue on with the building moratorium in Zone 2, she urged the City to
abandon its RDA plans to build over 200 new homes in the blighted/landslide
area.
Mayor McTaggart stated that the Mayor of Rolling Hills Estates was asked to
approach him concerning a border and landslide issue which is negatively
City Council Minutes
May 20, 2002
Page 7of8
impacting Rolling Hills businesses; and that the Mayor of Rolling Hills Estates
suggested that both cities hire a consultant to address this border/landslide
issue.
ADJOURNMENT:
At 9:20 P.M. the meeting was adjourned to Tuesday, May 21, 2002, 6:OOP.M., at
Hesse Park to interview candidates for the Equestrian Committee Chair.
Mayo
Attest:
'YL
City Clerk
W:\2002 City Council Minutes\05202002 cc mins.doc
City Council Minutes
May 20, 2002
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